Drat you, Holy Batman!

I had one each of a varsoviennes, quadrilles, galops, and lithuaniennes in my sandwich for tomorrow morning!
Thwack @#$%* Harumph!%#$^@! Gazooom+@#$%?

On a much lighter note, the list doesn't contain a verbatim ban on "sacro-pop", per se, which is not to say "popular songs, per se. NPM can breathe easier now, thanks to me! No, please, don't get up, stay seated, oh you all are so gracious.....

Thwack @#$%* Harumph!%#$^@! Gazooom+@#$%?- cubed.

Well, Mark, since you asked...
Nope, Trent couldn't solve parodies then, so how could we expect that "authority" would deign distinguish parodies of Lloyd-Webber and Bernstein now? Heck, the ubiquitous "they" let Woody Guthrie and the LimeLighters gain a foothold in the crypt Masses. Matter of time before sentiment ran rampant and amok. (I just wanted to say "amok," it's such a nihilistic catch-all and fun!)
Francis, have you ever taken in Walter Huston's "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" ?
I think that was the turning point of Western Civilization in the early 20th: "Badges. Badges? We don't got to cho you no steenking badges."
I'm in a very "que sera" mood, having tried to slay dragons at PTB for a couple of days. Very quixotic.

Well, Mark, since you asked...
Nope, Trent couldn't solve parodies then, so how could we expect that "authority" would deign distinguish parodies of Lloyd-Webber and Bernstein now?

I don't get it -- so the answer is, "Yes, but you don't really think people have ever been so square as to actually take crusty old papal proclamations literally, do you?"

Thanks, Francis. Since we still have lots of abuses in local parishes, we tend to get immune to them and forget what is really sacred. It's good to know and remember what Church Fathers said about the liturgy and the sacred music, so we know what we are dealing with. I believe even after Vatican II permitted some options in order to use as steps, the tradition and the ideal of the Church's sacred music continue in our time, regardless of the exceptions at a certain time and places.

Yea. Lately we use Adam's SEP and Ford's BFW.

Mia, I think the key word in your last sentence is "trying." We should be "trying" to move towards propers.

Let's be realistic. It is not responsible to ignore the expectations of our congregations. If the people believe there should be hymns, we can't responsibly just say, "Ok, I don't care what you think. We are singing propers for the introit, gradual, offertory and Communion."

Can we?

yes, Kathy is right. It is great to talk about what we would like, what it is right, what should be. But if we neglect the reality of parish life - the strategic, political, pastoral, resource issues - we make no progress. Plenty of evidence to support this, obviously.

Sorry... chiming in now because I have been running all day long.

Here is the problem as I see it.

Recently my pastor said to me, "once the toothpaste is out of the tube it's really hard to get it back in".

I would modify this statement a bit: "once the toothpaste is out of the tube it's NOT POSSIBLE to get it back in".

In other words, anyone who sets out to arrive at the destination that embodies the patrimony of liturgy (ie., Latin and the use of GC) is only fooling themselves if they think that singing chant in English will 'eventually' lead everyone back. True liturgy is unitive in every respect. (Music, action, word, language, vessel, architecture, etc.) The church attained that expression in the Rite that developed for centuries around the world... a global expression that is unitive in every respect (patrimony). UNITY is the goal Jesus called out for. It is his desire that we be ONE-even in our global outward expression.

So while I use the SEP and other English chant aids (thank you Adam and others for the resources), NO ONE is eventually going to walk up to me and say, 'hey... that English chant music you are doing is pretty cool... Maybe we should sing it in Latin!" These are new types of vernacular liturgy, certainly more beautiful than the rubbish we have endured, and certainly rooted in the tradition, but I don't think it is a stepping stone per say. I think it arrives at its own comfortable end which keeps me divided from the (ie., Spanish) brother who sits next to me. Why? Because he is preoccupied and busy at this very moment composing the SSP (Simple Spanish Propers) for "his preferred" musical style of chant, complete with cultural slants and all the rest... and the Italian guy is doing the same thing... all knockoffs of the real thing.

That is why the Motu Proprio is the only way "back"... because the Pope presents the right and true model of the liturgy in total without regard to geography, cultural idioms, personal taste, etc, etc, etc.--THE UNITIVE LITURGICAL EXPRESSION OF THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH. People who like or want or will even tolerate English chant are not being directed toward something bigger than their own (segregated) world... not in 1000 years. They are satisfied, enamoured with and 'taken' with their new vernacular counterpart. Beautiful in its own 'rite', so to speak, but it still falls short of the unity Jesus calls out for in John 17. This is a matter of the theological underpinning of an individual. The REAL question is, 'which individual will subscribe FULLY to what the Church puts forward as the truly universal model of liturgy?' - - the expression that most perfectly makes us ALL... the entire world, as one. (Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose it shall preserve it.)

Most people who want or will tolerate chant in English do not want to tolerate a Universal Church and Universal Liturgy. They can't stomach it. It's just taking it one step too far. And THAT is the critical and final step that they will NOT take to reach the destination of unity in expression. Unless a conversion of heart takes place, and a willingness to EMBRACE a universal Church that prescribes Latin (ONLY BECAUSE IT IS OUR PATRIMONY) as the common language, there will never be true unity of mind and heart among nations. We will always fall back into our self-centered relativism, the philosophy that "I must express myself as I am without regard to others (or my own patrimony) to be 'true' to myself." NOT!!!!!!!

‘We all want progress, but if you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.’
C.S. Lewis

So who are the REAL progressives here on this forum?

Bringing people's attention to the idea that there EXIST proper texts is the first step. That is why we use Chris Tietze's introit hymns, Andrew Motyka's Communion antiphons, By Flowing Waters, and the like.

Great response, Francis. It's Monday AM, still tending to weekly setup and chores. I'll get to your items ASAP, but know we're basically on the same page for now. In the Governator's worten "Ah'll be back!"
Talk wit'you later.
Blessings,
C

Charles:

I hear you. But you are not being clear.

Superorthodox guild? No, on the contrary it is guild that follows plainly what the Church has always asked, continues to ask, and those who are willing to stand up for it.

My alliance is with the Church. You are either with God or against Him (so he said). There is no middle ground, especially if it comes under the guise of 'pastoral' for the sake of spinning compromises or creating some kind of whitewashed Catholicism.

You still haven't told me what Marht and the others are saying... can you clue me in with quotes or references "from their voices?"

The motu of 2007 is that to which I am referring. Like I said earlier, I hold up the ideal with my right hand while I strum the guitar with my left. But I will hold the ideal much higher than how loud I will strum the guitar... the sooner I can leave the guitar in my music studio, the better. I am also hoping that if enough people join me in doing the same that people will take note. A voice cries in the wilderness. So what if we get jailed by kings and lose our heads in the process? It's tradition.

Here's one...

My son was considering the priesthood. In his discernment process he went to a few seminaries and saw what the priesthood represents (more accurately, what they fail to represent). Unfortunately, there was nothing greater than just the humanity of the priesthood being bannered high, nothing to challenge, nothing to aspire to. It was the same old milk-toast Jesus and 3rd rate washed out Catholicism that America has spun out for the last 50 years. He came back and said, 'dad, there was an incredible organ in the seminary but they were all up front on the altar strumming guitars for Mass! Who wants that?' A while back one priest stood up as a newly assigned pastor and said, "I am not your boss, I am your friend." We all winced. We don't need James Taylor, we need true shepherds who will direct the people to what we need, not what we want. My son is looking to be a man, not a wet noodle. Yuck! Another vocations director came a couple of years ago and held up his iPod proclaiming... we have all the latest and greatest stuff! (sad, sad, sad). No wonder the priesthood is becoming extinct... well, at least the priesthood that aspires to embrace all and in the end stands for nothing.

The (false) Christianity of late is quickly fading away. The Christianity of the ages is returning. Nothing will stop it.

And if I have to gather together with those who will stand for the real thing, then I certainly will, and I will lead the charge if I must. Because what I stand for is clear, concise and has nothing to do with the lovey-dovey wishy-washy mishy-mashy fruitcake Catholicsm that everyone is now running from. I am looking for those who want to play hardball with the big boys. I am going for the pennant, baby! The Motu Proprio isn't a dream, it's right there in black and white... no, red and black... You in?

C

I am trying to get the drift of M, R and S... just the drift. Is it something along the lines of what I am saying about the English chant delaying the inevitable?

Gray is the problem all right. I lost too many years to gray and I went black and white years ago, starting with the very roots of my Catholic faith, and then everything else spun off of that... music, philosophy, social issues, life, etc. It is all very black and white... no gray anymore. As a result, people can get the dander up over things I do and say. But Jesus had the same problem, so I just say what I believe is true and right and keep on moving. People either run away or jump on.

utinam frigidus esses, aut calidus

As per what you hear me saying, no, nothing is going to change overnight UNLESS we implement the Motu... for those that have the opportunity, they truly ought to take it. We gotta go brick by brick like we all espouse. I am just trying to get an assembly line going instead of us each picking up individual bricks all the time, IYKWIM.

Interesting... Just read Father Z's perspective... kinda similar to what I am trying to say:

There can be no renewal or effective “new re-evangelization” until our liturgical worship is revitalized. Worship is the key. I believe that Summorum Pontificum must play an important role in this revitalization. At the same time, a concerted effort must be made at every level to make sure that our liturgical books are being followed.

As long as we keep puttzin around with new innovations and knockoffs, we will only delay what needs to be done. English Propers are great efforts, and well worth our time, but we need to promote GC and Latin polyphony at the same time with just as much vigor IN CONJUNCTION with the Latin Mass.