ICEL Kyrie
  • CindyCeciliaCindyCecilia
    Posts: 65
    I can't quite believe I am asking this, but here goes . . . .
    Our parish began using some of the ICEL chants in September - the Kyrie, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamations, and Lamb of God. We will begin using the ICEL "Gloria" in 2 weeks. Our parish was not familiar with the ICEL chants and there was a bit of resistance when we started them; especially from a few choir members. In particular, one choir member was upset that I chose to use the elaborate ending to the "Kyrie" rather than the simple echo. My reasoning being that the simple echo is . . . . . well, simple, and people will easily be able to sing that - so to me, it made sense to learn the elaborate - that way the congregation would know both. This past Sunday, the choir member approached me prior to Mass and informed me that I had made a mistake in choosing to use the optional ending, that it was NEVER intended to be a congregational response, and that the publishing companies had also made a mistake in including it in their materials. I was dumbfounded. Has anyone ever heard that? (I learned the elaborate ending at another Parish and have heard it often in other Parishes as well)
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    One tradition of chanting the 9-fold Kyrie was alternating between 2 choirs, or between 1 cantor and the choir. Another gave the cantor part to the celebrant - thus he had the first and the last Kyrie. But still another tradition was that the congregation actually sang the entire Kyrie, and all the other parts as well, except for the intonation (by strictly the priest) of the Gloria and Credo. So you're choir member is partly right, and so are you. There really are very few absolutes in these matters.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    In other words, what messed up the whole thing was the introduction of the 6-fold Kyrie, which mathematically gave the congregation the last word on everything!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Great explanation, Steve.
    A couple of years ago we decided to retire the Proulx Oecumenica "Lord have mercy" (F minor) while keeping a Glory that I composed as a companion to Proulx's setting, based upon his Holy (F major.) We opted to use this Kyrie as written, six-fold. I remember teaching the schola not to over or underemphasize the obvious motivic, cadential shift, but to move through it naturally, unaffected by avoiding any inclination to ritard or push the final "-soooooooon." As in all things, it took the congregation about six to eight weeks to "get" the cadence, but they did. Time and consistency.
    I remember the first time I "ran into" the Mass of Creation. I happened to be in Honolulu's cathedral as part of a graduate solo quartet tour, and we were enlisted by the DM/organist to "cantor" a Mass. So we sight read the movements. At that time, nothing registered either way on my "worthy radar." Later on, the Holy melody started popping up in diocesan events and I remembered, "Oh, that's that Mass from Hawaii." My point is even the MoC melodies didn't just burst into the collective memory like the soundtrack themes from Star Trek or Star Wars.
    Give your choristers some nurturing and time through that cadence, they'll come around.
    OTOH- I must register some reservations about using this setting in English. As CindyC says, the echo may seem idylllic for congregations, but diminished in stature by comparison to the Greek original.
  • CindyCeciliaCindyCecilia
    Posts: 65
    Thank you for the replies. I should have probably clarified, we are singing "Kyrie", not "Lord, have mercy". The choir member's objection was not so much historical, as it was that "this ending is just too hard for congregations!" (hence, my mistake and the publishers' mistakes in printing).
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    I would not call it a mistake in any case. IMO there is nothing in any of the Ordinaries of the Mass (the "Kyriale") that is too difficult for the congregation. The composers/compilers of the Graduale reserved the more difficult Propers for the schola cantorum. You're not going to please everyone, no matter what decisions you make.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Yes, I have heard people in the congregation and the choir that said ridiculous things like this and it is a challenge to authority, it has nothing to do with the music."


    "I had made a mistake" and even better "the publishing companies had also made a mistake in including it in their materials." is even richer.

    It would be tempting to tell here that it is impressive that she has more knowledge and insight than you, just a humble church musician, and than publishing companies and that you encourage her to write them and the parish newspaper and lodge your complaint and that you will support her in every way in her quest to pursue this and solve what appears to be a huge musicological mess.

    It is her duty to do this and you, as a parish musician, must sing what is in the book, but look forward to the eventual corrections made throughout the United States by the USCCB in approving the music to be sung this way.

    Then take her aside and whisper, "Listen, I heard someone say that the English Mass we say is really a Latin Mass....can you imagine such a thing? " Encouraging her to attack that vicious rumour would also be fun.
  • CindyCeciliaCindyCecilia
    Posts: 65
    You bring up a good point Mr. Frogman - challenge to authority. A few people in my parish have a little difficulty with the concept of authority. I was challenged a couple of weeks ago by a parishioner because I was following the GIRM - she told me I needed to learn when to bend the rules and how to think outside the box, because, after all, Rome has nothing to do with us. Sometimes, it is an uphill climb in the manner of Sisyphus.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    The ICEL Kyrie is the same one my congregation has been using for years. The "elaborate" ending is the only one they know, since it is in the Ritual Song hymnal. This sounds like the guy who hates "For All the Saints" at my parish. He always points out that he doesn't like that hymn every time we sing it. I finally told him the pastor loves that hymn, and his opinion is the only one that matters.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    If it is only a few, your parish is abnormal!

    Rome truly has nothing to do with the USA church.
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