Alleluia verse
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    My children's schola has been singing Gospel Acclamation with the verse on the Psalm tone provided in PBC. This Wednesday verse is from Phil.3:8-9,

    "I consider all things so much rubbish
    that I may gain Christ and be found in him."

    Is is possible to change the word 'rubbish' to 'refuse' which is defined in a dictionary as 'anything discarded as worthless or useless' ? (I'll of course explain the meaning to the children.)
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Since "rubbish" and "refuse" do not really mean the same thing, and "rubbish" is used in metaphorical contexts ("Your argument is rubbish!") while "refuse" is not ("Your argument is refuse!"), why on earth would you want to make such a substitution in the first place?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Mia, in the original Greek, St. Paul was using a blunt expression. He used the word "skubala", which, according to my dictionary, means "dung, filth, refuse". The Bible translators who present it as "rubbish" are being a bit too polite about it.

    "I consider all things so much crap
    that I may gain Christ and be found in him"

    No, that doesn't sing well.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    With all due respect, it's not our place to change the approved texts because we don't like the translation, even in consideration of the age of the schola.

    We rail against the likes of Haugen, Haas et al for doing this, so I think we have an obligation to practice what we preach, as they say.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    You can always try the Latin: "Omnia detrimentum feci et arbitror ut stercora, ut Christum lucri faciam et inveniar in illo.", but the meaning of the Latin stercora isn't much of an improvement... See this entry in the Lewis & Short Dictionary.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you for all the help. I appreciate it.

    Philippians 3:8-9, says,'For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ."

    And in my Missal (by Our Sunday Visitor) it is said,

    " I count all things worthless but this:
    to gain Jesus Christ and to be found in him."

    which seems a bit clearer.

    And the GIRM says (62, a)
    a. The Alleluia .....The verses are taken from the Lectionary of the Gradual.

    I will use the verse from the Lectionary. And if we are not suppose to change the text, I won't. I wasn't sure. (and I am just glad that I don't have to sing the word what Chonak said :-)

    But I'm curious and for the future, can we use a translation of the Gradual, like the one in the Gregorian missal, and sing it on a Psalm tone?
  • WGS
    Posts: 297
    My copy of the Gregorian Missal has this cautionary advice on page 6:

    "The notated Gregorian chant pieces proper to each Mass, are generally followed by our own translation, printed across the full length of the page. Its only function is to facilitate comprehension of the sung Latin text, and it is in no way intended for use in the liturgy."
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Ok, so I guess in this case, unlike other Propers with a few options, only the official text from the Lectionary (Latin or English) or the Latin text from the Gradual can be used.
    Thanks for all the help. And it's comforting to know that there's a site where one can get help from the musicians who try to follow the Church's instruction faithfully.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    ...although Chonak's translation has a nice ring to it. :P
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I thought in the OF, you are free to substitute other verses for the Alleluia, becuase the first edition of the US Lectionary (before 1998/2002) did not provide verses for each individual Gospel reading, only a list of "suggested" general verses. I believe these or other similarly generic verses are still allowed, e.g., "Speak O Lord your servant is listening..."

    So, I deduce there'd be nothing specifically illicit in using an alternative verse. But I think it might be more in the spirit of the rubrics to use a completely different verse that is general or otherwise matches the theme of the reading than to tinker with one word in one specific translation.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I think there is a list of generic "seasonal" verses, as well as a specific one for each day. I still don't think you could change the daily one though. Either use the verse of the day, or a seasonal verse, exactly as written.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Actually, I know there is a list of seasonal verses, but it might only be usable during ordinary time.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    The "legislation" for this is likely in the Introduction to the Lectionary. I don't know how specific it is. I would assume there is more latitude in the letter of the law here, but I could be wrong, and, being someone who myself usually sticks to what's written, I don't have the time to look it up.

    Just don't put something like a Gospel Acclamation verse one the same level as the words of consecration!

    Of course, I understand for some it is a slippery slope from there...
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    The intro to the lectionary (90) says the following:
    The chant between the second reading and the gospel is either specified in each Mass and correlated with the gospel or else it is left as a choice to be made from those in the series belonging to a liturgical season or to one of the Commons.

    The Ordo Lectionum Missae, in addition to listing an Alleluia verse or verse before the Gospel for all Sundays and ferials in the Temporale, there are an additional 16 alternate Alleluia verses that may also be used for OT Sundays (including 3 that are reserved for the last Sundays in OT), and 43 alternates for OT weekdays (including 4 reserved for the last weeks in OT).

    Ben Yanke is right, the seasonal Alleluia verses are only for OT. However, you can get additional options from the Graduale Simplex, which often has interesting unique options for the verse before the Gospel:
    • An Alleluia refrain with two verses; (all seasons but Lent)
    • An "Alleluia psalm," which has many psalm verses, each followed by Alleluia sung by all; (Advent & OT)
    • A responsorial psalm; (Lent)
    • A Tract; (Lent)
    • An Antiphona acclamationis (Lent).

    (If anyone is curious, the last item seems to be unique to the GS, and it is the least syllabic of the chants in the GS -- meaning there are occasionally some syllables that have as many as 5 notes! ;-)

    Probably way more than anyone wanted, but there it is!

    Jon

    Jon
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