Gloria Patri in OF Introits
  • This is probably a rookie question, but is it proper to include the Gloria Patri after chanting the introit at Mass in the OF? I.e., can I just follow the same procedure used for the introit in the EF?
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    Yes. The rubrics in the 1974 Graduale Romanum assume you will (though I think they say you may omit it).

    If you're singing in English, the only question is whether to use the old "Glory be" or the modern "Glory to." I don't think anything prevents one from using the old "Glory be," which is what our schola uses when it chants the propers in English. It seems to me the cadence of the old Glory be makes it easier to sing than the modern version, but I may be making that up. Plus, "world without end" is awesome.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,025
    "Glory be to..." is ever so much better than simply "Glory to..." - and "world without end" is indeed awesome! :)
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  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 853
    "world without end," while poetic, is a bit of a theological problem, isn't it??? I mean, the world will end...

    "saecula saeculorum" is "ages of ages" - nothing about the "world" in there...
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    Apparently not because, for instance, the ritual books of the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite approve both forms of the Glory be/Glory to.
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  • I've heard it was theologically problematic, but that's the version used in the 1964 Bede Babo Roman Breviary in English approved by Rome.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 853
    I'm sorry, I wasn't implying "Glory be..." wasn't licit... just that it seems it would be somewhat hypocritical for me to advocate for literal translations, and then have my choir sing "Glory be..." instead of "Glory to..." because I can't defend the accuracy of the "Glory be..." translation compared to "Glory to..."

    Maybe someone else here could?
  • I personally like the Byzantine ending "through ages of ages" or "for ages of ages."
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 979
    I've also had questions about the phrase "world without end," because it does seem to be theologically incorrect. All of the other translations I've seen have phrases like "century after century" or something that indicates an incredibly long time. It would seem we already have a perfectly appropriate phrase, "forever and ever."

    I asked a Priest about this a couple of years ago but he couldn't offer any explanation about why it's appropriate to use "world without end." Where does one go with questions like this?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,025
    Hmmm, isn't in saecula saeculorum a formulaic expression for (the concept of) "eternity" or "eternally" (the Vulgate saecula translates the Greek aion, from which we have the English word "eon")? It seems that people now are far too prone to being overly literal. Yet, we use such terms as "a month of Sundays" or "until Hell freezes over" to mean a long, long time and don't think twice about it. Some will say, "But the world will end." My reply is that, yes, the world as we know it may well end, but what about that world beyond that world, the world of the Revelation of John? Not that I know anything about that.
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    What CHGiffen said.

    My point was that, since Holy Mother Church says we can use "Glory be" in the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite, Holy Mother Church has apparently concluded that the figurative expression "world without end" isn't theologically problematic or incorrect.

    To the extent someone is perplexed by the expression, the solution is to say, "It's a poetic way of saying, "forever and ever," the way, say, "Hide me in the shadow of your wings" a poetic way of saying, "Protect me," and not an assertion that God is a winged beast. The same response would be in order if, for example, someone said it was "theologically problematic" to say "through ages of ages" is because the word "age" means a finite, temporal period, whereas eternity is infinite and extra-temporal.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 979
    Well, that's the best explanation I've heard of this, so thanks! But it does seem interesting that the translators chose "world without end" when "forever and ever" is commonly used and seems so appropriate.

    But I'm no translator, so I'll leave that to the experts.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    Unless it's changed, Glory Be, was the form of Gloria Patria in the British and Irish Liturgy of the Hours (rather than Glory to).
  • My understanding of why English speakers have long said "Glory be to the Father..." is that English sentences need a verb. In Latin, a form of the verb 'to be' need not be stated explicitly. So 'Gloria Patri' is a complete, correct Latin sentence in a way that "Glory to the Father" seems not complete in English.

    Another common liturgical example is "Dominus vobiscum." The verb 'to be' is implied. The typical translation, of course, is "The Lord be with you." I have occasionally heard priests say "The Lord is with you," but haven't yet heard anyone try "The Lord with you." Likewise, in St Luke's Gospel, and the Ave Maria, we have "Dominus tecum," typically translated with the verb 'is' added: "The Lord is with thee."

    It seems to me that adding "be" to Glory be... is merely a matter of using English grammar in the translation.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,025
    Just as in Slavonic: Slava Otsu... (no "to be"), but still translates as "Glory be to the Father"...
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,003
    I think the question that is still not answered is the official permission to use the translation that virtually all Catholics are familiar with in their personal prayers - "Glory be to the Father, ... world without end. Amen." IOW, if some one publishes a book of Propers in English, and it includes only the modernized "Glory to the Father", will it be taken for granted that the former has, indeed, been replaced OFFICIALLY by the latter?

    This whole question goes to the overall approach to the translation of Mass texts, i.e. are they singable? I think it has been proven that the Anglican translations (traditional - Tudor) do fit their traditional chant melodies well. I also think that the new ICEL texts, with their melodies, are an exercise in fitting square pegs in round holes! It seems oxymoronic that an exercise in going back to more traditional texts ends up being yet another reinvention of the wheel!
  • Maureen
    Posts: 646
    The Old English "weoruld", like the Latin "saecula", meant "a really long time". ("Weoruld" meant something like "a generation" or "the lifespan of a man", if I recall correctly, whereas "saecula" means more like "an age". But both were used similarly vaguely to mean whatever you felt like poeticking.)

    Anyway, in the Gospels and elsewhere, Jesus is always talking about "this age" and "this generation". But He often does so in a way that makes it practically a synonym for "this world". This influenced the way "saecula" increasingly was used as a synonym for "this world". So when Old English Gospel translations used "weoruld" in these phrases, it also moved from being strictly a time phrase to being a time-and-space phrase.

    The phrase "saecula saeculorum" (age of ages) implies that the ages do not cease -until the end of time-, or that there is a ceaseless (until the end) Mother of All Ages, an awesomely long time, being referred to. "Weoruld withouten ende" (or whichever spelling/pronunciation you use) was and is a perfectly reasonable translation of this dimension of perpetuity until the end of time. Even though "weoruld" is now "world", it still straddles space and time in its definition.

    Some of this stuff is affected by Latin having a ton of different words for "forever" and "always" and "ceaselessly", each of which can have different implications as to whether the forever period has a beginning but no end; no beginning and no end; or a beginning and an end but no pauses in the middle. English doesn't really care too much about these fine distinctions. (Though they are important for theology, your English theologians were talking theology in Latin; so they didn't care much about them in English, either.)

    (Anyway, if anybody thinks "world without end" means there's no end of time, that person hasn't been properly taught about the Four Last Things. This would never have been a problem in any generation before our own, because English religious literature and sermons, as well as popular devotional literature in English, have always been hugely interested in the Four Last Things. And if you really wanted an excruciatingly literal translation that includes everything that's implied, it should be something like "May there be glory given to", which would be annoying to sing or say. All this messing about with perfectly good translations is a sad mistake.)
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,025
    Thanks so much, Maureen. Your analysis made my day, bringing back memories...

    It has been way too long a time since I read Beowulf (by that I mean not in translation!) or thought in terms of Old English, Old Saxon and the like. It makes perfect sense now ... "weoruld" or "weoreld" is essentially a compound: "we[o]r"+"lud/eld/old" being "man"+"age", the "Age of man". There is even the same sort of correspondence between the modern German "Welt" (world) with the Old or Middle High German "Weralt" ("Wer"+"alt"). Of course, we might also recognize "we[o]r" or "wer[e]" from the folkloric "werewolf" (or "werewulf").
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    Also note that from saecula comes "secular" which we now take to mean "worldly."

    Sometime you have to remember what words used to mean.

    I wrote a blog post about "And with your spirit" recently.
    Someone commented that the phrase is meaningless in English.
    Really? Because it sounds like it means that we are asking the Lord to be with the someone's spirit. I guess that's just me.

    I do really like "unto ages of ages," though.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 646
    I'm glad I could help. And yeah, I'm fine with ages of ages. Just not so much in the Glory Be. :)

    Sorry if I sounded harsh. I've been in a really foul mood lately, and I'm finding it hard to judge tone when I post.