Something else to blame on Vatican II implementation??
  • I had an interesting back and forth with a dear friend, a woman who did a beautiful job as volunteer and then paid music director in a small city parish. (The city was small; the parish got huge.) She has greeted these changes with considerable apprehension, as possibly causing lots of harm. I myself don't see how, if everyone just sticks to the script, it could, but that is her fear. She finally let loose with something close to a tirade about how brutal the change were when the Novus Ordo was promulgated and the harm that it did. She "hope(d) they learned their lesson," but her bishop has done little that she has seen, and her pastor has done nothing. It has fallen to the new, professionally trained music director, who is something like CMAA's ideal--a person at the local level who is really trying. She loves him, but says that he has hit a brick wall. I don't go to that parish so much anymore, but I have to wonder about how much teaching is going on to make things clearer and less fear inducing. If it's anything like what I found on the websites, it is up to the pastor, and there of course is no record of that online. I'll found out next time I go.

    I have head in more than one context that people feel like they don't participate, but if there is no teaching how can they know that the choir is not just doing a performance?

    It is interesting,because that is the reason Benedict goes so slowly. Although he supported the liturgical changes, he said repeatedly as Prefect that great harm was done by the brutal manner of their execution. That's why it took him two years to sign an indult for the Tridentine Mass, when he had been a prime mover behind such a move and had a big hand in drafting the indult as Prefect. That's why a rumored walk back through everything that was done in creating the Novus Ordo has long been rumored, but has been going on for ten years now and may both predate and outlast his papacy, if rumors are to be believed. And that's why he coined the terms Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms--for unity's sake.

    I myself do not understand why every parish would not want to have a High Mass with Latin propers, and why every Cathedral does not have full Latin Novus Ordo. But I also don't understand why some people are so attached to the Extraordinary Form, and have gotten scowls for saying simply that I myself am happy that it is a Mass done properly, whichever form.

    So maybe this is a huge part of it. Where I, as a convert, just see the beauty that could be, cradle Catholics remember the trauma. They don't see it as a restoration, but as 'another period of trauma." People who want to restore then become troublemakers.

    The wonderful TOR who had so much to do with my conversion taught me a lot. Everyone thought he was liberal, but as I said to him at his goodbye dinner, at a moment when everyone else was blabbing away happily, "You're pre-conciliar. You think the Church is always going to win." He pointed at me and said, "That's exactly right." That's why his Provincial looked at him seriously at a meeting once and said, "You know, I think Columba may be the most conservative of all us." He professed dislike for Joseph Ratzinger, but read the Ratzinger Report when I did and pronounced it a very good book. He had not realized that Ratzinger was thinking along the lines he was: that the fighting is wrong. He loved the way it was put in the old Catechism, that the most minor of offenses, as opposed to the big ones like heresy and schism, was 'gives offense to pious ears."

    So that's the blowback, even among the bishops. I think it is interesting that one bishop remembered that there was a "Mass for Christian Unity" during the transitional period and has imposed that: he remembers the hope and wants to, as Jeff Tucker has put it in a slightly different context, jump from 1967 to 2011 and kind of forget about all the bad that happened in between.

    I get in trouble for bad mouthing bishops who deserve it, so I have had to learn to curtail my language. (During the scandals, I was stunned to find out that cradle Catholics didn't know that scandal is caused by the person who does the harm, not by the person who talks about it. A lot of bad people hid behind that 'don't criticize the Church' thing.) But maybe here again our exuberance for beauty may be something we have to watch. I don't have to worry about that here: I either go to the Mass at the National Shrine or the Latin OF at the Cathedral. But the people out there in other dioceses--well, my friend was offended by my exuberance. So I had to walk it back a little bit.

    I can tell you that I have looked at diocesan websites, and it doesn't surprise me that so many music directors have answered the question about early implementation by saying they have only gotten silence, or made jokes about the (non-existent) liturgical police enforcing norms. A lot of diocese merely link to the USCCB, or, as in Washington, every liturgical publisher under the sun, without any guidance on music. (Lots on implementation of the text, which puts us lightyears ahead of way too many dioceses I looked at.) I don't even know what has been done in the parishes in my own diocese, because of where I go to Mass.

    But my friend's reaction made me see it in a whole different light: the cradle Catholics see any change as bringing on the old fights, and they just want to go to Mass. The memory of the fights prevents them from seeing beauty restored, and makes them resent those who want to restore it.

    Just a thought.
  • Yes, this is very true. There is a certain generation of Catholics that has a hysterical fear and loathing of Latin, for example. They think of the old world has a huge closet full of stuff, much good and much bad. They don't want it opened at all for fear that they will be bombarded by terrible things that they can't stand to remember. They may not really object to Latin chant as such - might even like it - but they have a paranoia that the Latin chant opens the way for their third grade teacher to hit them on the head with a ruler again or something like that.
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  • That much is true. But what I think my friend was getting at was the arguing, and if those of use who love Chant come across as wanting to reopen those wounds, then THAT is what will get a reaction. If the idea can get across that we were mising something with the bad translation...but that takes teaching.

    It's not that they fear the return of something they hated along with something they might have liked; they fear the return of people who like to fight. Some of the neo-ecclesial movements are resented not because of their call to a deeper commitment, but because, in some cases, they actually lock regular parishioners out of Mass. Hence, the feeling that if the average person doesn't get to sing a song, they are being left out. Take Opus Dei: they are very active in DC and I have personally benefitted from the ministry of those who faithfully fulfill St. Josemaria Escriva's vision of calling all the faithful to take their place in the Church. I know other instances where supernumeraries have acted like parodies of everyone's nightmare version of Opus Dei. Guess which version the Bl. John Paul had in mind when he evelated St. Josemaria to the dignity of the altars.

    Yes, some just fit Mass in between Starbucks, the gym, and the mall. But I think some are genuinely fearful of all that shouting. It's only someone you love a lot who looks attractive when they are mad.

    It always amazes me what rumor does to reputations. Was there ever a more lovely, peaceful man than Joseph Ratzinger? Yet people still want him to be God's Rottweiler, so they figure everything he does must be policy. That is, he doesn't crack heads so he must agree with everyone whose head he doesn't crack. Yet one of his first pastoral acts was to have Hans Kung, who both recruited him for Tubingen and then drove him out, some visit him at Castel Gondolfo. His leading by example on the liturgy has to be seen in that light: both the substance, and the style.

    I have been out of active parish life for a while because of various things, including two wonderful Masses with first class professional musicians which made life all too easy. I am getting back in, and so that is why I have been posing these questions. And I can see where my strong opinions may be harmful. That's what really concerns my friend. If the new translation, as important as that is, is just dropped on people's heads, as it is in too many dioceses, then a lot of old timers are going to just think, "Great. Left out again."

    The youth groups are key, and always have been. The 1970's and 1980's generation adopted a preference for a minimal form of Catholicism. The JPII priests who are now coming in are going to expect more. "Duc in altum!" And now that Pope Benedict has restored Papal Masses to all Latin, all the time, and placed such an emphasis on aesthetics, the younger generation is going to want even more. Just because I know kids, I can sense some conflict brewing. The Apostle Paul laid all of the problems of the Church at Corinth to their divisions.

    Which is why a prayerful, supportive attitude is important, no matter how hard it is to develop.

    And pastors are human. Who are they going to smile on---the squeaky wheel, or the extra pair of hands? Just a thought.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    What I think this misses is that there are many people for whom the reformed liturgy was not a trauma, but a relief. And there's lot of them around (I think, for example of my parents, now 87, and conservative Catholics - they have zero interest in a revived EF, though my mother has fond memories of old Holy Saturday morning, but on the other hand has beloved memories of the reformed ritual, too). And it's not all about getting knocked on the knuckles (that continued for a while after the conciliar reforms, btw). For centuries, lots and lots of Catholics put their energies of public prayer into devotions rather than the Mass; by the time of the Council, Pius X's goal to shift that praxis had worked more at the sacramental than at the liturgical level as such. The level of TLC the EF now gets in self-selected communities is not representative of the overall level of liturgical praxis before the reforms (and should remember that the Solemn High Mass was experienced by many as something more of a penance for being late sleepers than something to be embraced - I say that knowing I would have vastly preferred the high Mass over the low Mass, and I know my preferences were a tiny minority.....)
  • I was just rereading Day's Why Catholics Can't Sing. His characterization of preconciliar liturgy is incredible, dismal. If he is right, even the average parish situation today might be considered an improvement. Of course the big difference is that there once was an unpracticed ideal where as now that is largely gone (but returning).
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Jeffrey

    And then there is the matter of Cdl Cushing's fog horn, um, I mean voice.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    His characterization of preconciliar liturgy is incredible, dismal. If he is right, even the average parish situation today might be considered an improvement.

    This is an important point. A lot of people (on every side of musical preference) think that before V2 there was Gregorian Chant solemn liturgy, and that V2 sought to change that.
    Actually, the opposite is true, it seems:
    Before the council there was little Gregorian chant and awful liturgy, and the council sought to change that, by:
    -promoting Gregorian chant
    -simplifying the ritual (perhaps so that one could focus on solemnity and execution, instead of worrying about all the rules)
    -allowing options to increase solemnity (I read here someone explaining that all the options in the Novus Ordo we ten to think of as an option "not to do" something more solemn should rather be thought of as options allowing us to do something more solemn, since in the pre-conciliar rules there was a sort-of all or nothing approach)

    There's a certain brand of revisionist interpretation of V2 going on currently, which I think is highly problematic.
    HOWEVER, the RotR is absolutely right about some things. I don't know how you can read Sacrosanctam Concillium and come away with puppets and guitars instead of Gregorian Chant. (All other things being equal, of course.)

    (Self-promotion note: I blogged about this over a year ago)
  • I was just rereading Day's Why Catholics Can't Sing. His characterization of preconciliar liturgy is incredible, dismal. If he is right, even the average parish situation today might be considered an improvement. Of course the big difference is that there once was an unpracticed ideal where as now that is largely gone (but returning).


    Jeffrey, if you have not yet read Walter W. Whitehouse's dissertation The Musical Prelude to Vatican II: Plainsong, Participation, and Pius X (pdf), I think you would find it of great interest. Over here in another forum I quoted a few remarks related to this topic, among them: "Another writer in 1901 confirms this picture: 'One often hear expressions of regret from the clergy that they never hear the Proper of the Mass from one year's end to another, because their choirs cannot or will not make a proper study of the plain chant.'" And this:
    A common reason given for the non-reception of chant, its distinct unpopularity both during this period and following the motu proprio [Tra le Soll.], is the “vitiated” taste of the general public: “The stream [of chant tradition] has long been choked,” says Stockley, and quotes an English priest to the effect that “the taste of our Catholics in general for Church music is too vitiated, or perhaps rather totally corrupted by opera music and fiddling jigs, ever to relish serious tones.”
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I had to look up vitiated.
    vitiated
    past participle, past tense of vi·ti·ate (Verb)
    1. Spoil or impair the quality or efficiency of: "programs vitiated by red tape".
    2. Destroy or impair the legal validity of.

    That sounds right.
  • My friend who started me thinking about this referred to the restoration of "joy" brought by the Mass Joseph Ratzinger has never deviated from his belief that the Council and the subsequent reforms were necessary. My late father finally went to a Novus Ordo and complained that the priest "didn't do anything." (An interesting comment, in light of my ultimate conversion--Mom was Presbyterian, and when Dad did nothing for our religious education, she sent us to Sunday school, and I was Baptized after a classic Evangelical conversion experience at 14. But my conversion to Rome was essentially over the Apostolic Succession.)

    So I have never gotten worked up over the EF, as I said before.

    But two things: it is remarkable how much Catholicism I picked up from my engineer father and his almost illiterate father. I suspect that that did not go on as much during the upheaval years. Is it now, those 'little seminaries' that the Blessed John Paul talked about in our homes?

    And finally, one thing has struck me, because one finds among more traditional Catholics a kind of rejection of American consumer culture, which rejection is fine, but the comments sometimes slip over into anti-Americanism. But as a Scandinavian member of the International Theological Commission pointed out, the Amish would be inconceivable in Scandinavia---there is one accepted way of thinking and living. Gregorian Chant is alive in Europe--mainly over a disco beat, certainly not in Church. I overheard a jazz band getting ready for a show and one white guy blurted out that anyone who stuck Gregorian Chant over a disco beat would make a mint. A Black guy said, "Enigma's been doing that for 10 years. And Enya." U2 and Sting both depend on elements of Chant.

    But only in the US is there this much volunteer work being done on such a scale. Even the concept of volunteering is unheard of. And yet I have hundreds of pages of stuff to study off the internet, an American invention. I listen to chant and polyphony for 16 a month on Napster, an American invention.

    And the lack of joy at the new changes in part stems from all these--the knuckle-rapping, the arguments, the sense of rejuvenation at the time. And the failure to teach and to pastor continues, and congregations dig in their heels for all sorts of reasons.

    Which is why maintaining charity above all else is still the key, which is where this started.
  • "Before the council there was little Gregorian chant and awful liturgy, and the council sought to change that, by:
    -promoting Gregorian chant
    -simplifying the ritual (perhaps so that one could focus on solemnity and execution, instead of worrying about all the rules)"

    Adam I have heard the same thing about good music being non-existent before Vatican II as well, except of course in certain places. Perhaps it will take years before we get decent liturgy in most parishes if ever but at least we don't have mean ole Charlemagne running around with his army imposing Gregorian Chant on everyone!! A big difference between now and the late '60s is the internet and all of the wonderful help that is available. We have a savvy younger generation who knows well how to use these tools.

    As for the simplification of the ritual I am not so sure. What I have noticed since my conversion to Catholicism in 1978 is a hodge podge of liturgical execution which runs the distance from priests who offer a very fine liturgy in the Ordinary Form to those who want to insert themselves to the point of distraction. Now, as an Extraordinary Form Catholic in a parish which offers the full Propers and the High Mass not only on Sundays but often on weekdays as well, I find the ritual is not that difficult for priest or congregation. Indeed a person can follow what the priest is doing as easily in an EF Mass, and depending on the priest perhaps more easily, as an Ordinary Form Mass. As far as musicians are concerned it can be a great benefit to have the movements of the priest set more rigidly. Ooops I used the word "rigid"!
  • As I think about it, however, there is a new book out on the history of St. Patricks (new as in a year old; I blogged about it somewhere). It was describing the situation in NY at the time of PX. The director of music had all the Gregorian propers for high Mass every week, a full mixed-voice professional choir of paid singers, and they were doing all the right stuff. So the situation was not universally bad.

    To tell you the truth, I've always suspected that Day was really relaying his own experience, which sounds utterly dreadful. Maybe that was conventional. But the situation was also mixed in some way.
  • This dissertation, by the way, the one linked above, looks absolutely amazing, even all consuming. wow.

    http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-04172008-124519/unrestricted/WhitehouseW042008D_Vol1.pdf
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,198
    That dissertation is indeed amazing ... I spent several hours reading through several sections last night (and into the wee hours of the morning) ... probably will come back to it for more edification.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Jeffrey

    St Patricks was long a well-endowed place, in a location of the most immense wealth in the country and well supplied with professional singers. It would have been shocking if they had not pulled off a paid professional High Mass every Sunday.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    And remembering Fifth Avenue Famous (which I read at your recommendation, Jeffrey), in the beginning they had to import singers from a Caecilian church. TLS was a big upheaval, and unlike some churches, St. pat's was too prominent to be able to ignore the Pope as some parishes did; they had to lead by example.
  • Small Ohio town - 17,000 people. 1958 Men's and Boy's Choir sings Rossini Propers and Gregorian Chant Ordinary along with Motets from St. Gregory Hymnal every Sunday. Pastor hired a man from the closest big town to come and train the boys and men and the local director. Organist was 16 years old, left to get his degree in organ at Juilliard and remains as DOM at Brooklyn Cathedral, played for one service at the Pope's visit.

    There were churches, even in the hinterlands, that did well to preserve the tradition.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    As someone mentioned over at the Café, there is a second volume to the Whitehouse dissertation:

    http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-04172008-124519/unrestricted/WhitehouseW042008D_Vol2.pdf