Ordinary Form or Extraordinary Form?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Would you rather attend a solemn high pontifical Mass according to the 1962 Missal, or a high Mass in the ordinary form at Westminster Cathedral or such? Why?

    Attending an early morning Mass at the parish with no music at all, would you rather it were in the ordinary or extraordinary form? Why?

    For low Masses, I prefer the ordinary form. For the high Masses, I think both forms are excellent. The 1962's advantage is its overlapping textures of song and motion and words: the whisper of the servers as the choir sings, the ringing of the bells while the priest speaks. an often deeper hush during consecration and Communion. It's poetry. The 1962 requires study in order to understand the text, which is also true of good poetry, but a bit of a challenge, liturgically.

    What if there were something like the 1962 in gesture and style, but like the NO in English?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Either one since the odds are that I would be anyplace but in the United States.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I think the OF can be incredibly beautiful. But I also think the EF has more of everything good and is less vulnerable to abuse. That being said, I'm not a fan of the Low Mass, but I'm trying. It just doesn't seem like public worhsip to me. Then again, I have a small attention span.

    As to your last question, I'll play my cards for all to see. Ive given lots of thought to that same question over the years. My answer is no, no way, never. As a musician, I know that moving to all vernacular, even rich vernacular, would mean a great impoverishment in the area of sacred music. It would rule out authentic Gregorian chant all together. The repertoire is too unique, too organic, too beautiful, and too meaningful to centuries of Catholics for that to happen. No vernacular propers to date, even the well done ones like SEP, come close to the melodic and textual mastery found in the Gregorian originals.
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton francis kenstb
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    I'd go with the OF in both instances, but there are a lot of other instances in between where I would choose the EF. It's close on the High Mass, but I'm just a sucker for the chanted Roman Canon.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    As a musician, I know that moving to all vernacular, even rich vernacular, would mean a great impoverishment in the area of sacred music. It would rule out authentic Gregorian chant all together. The repertoire is too unique, too organic, too beautiful, and too meaningful to centuries of Catholics for that to happen. No vernacular propers to date, even the well done ones like SEP, come close to the melodic and textual mastery found in the Gregorian originals.


    Amen, amen, amen, and amen.
    Thanked by 2Chris Allen francis
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    EF for low Mass, OF for high Mass.
    I like the flexibility of the OF-- you can do latin if you WANT to! for some or all of the liturgy!
  • allsnsct
    Posts: 3
    I would prefer the Traditional Mass always. It took me forever to learn just a little bit of Latin but after a short while, you're building quite a vocabulary. But the most important reason I prefer the LM is because the words of the Mass are so beautiful. And it seems to discourage eating and drinking during Mass.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I don''t know much Latin either, just learning some, but I can actually participate in EF, without distraction whether I vocalize or not, by offering prayers and be able to receive the grace more fully which is from God and which I need to live as a Christian in my daily life. EF is pure and humble, yet very powerful, and not controlled by worshipers. EF is where I experience what is Holy on this earth and where I can taste the slice of heaven. This I will not trade with any highest knowledge or the most beautiful music on earth.
  • Patricia Cecilia
    Posts: 397
    I prefer the EF in whatever form, Low Mass for daily Mass and Missa Cantata or the rare Missa Solemnis for Sundays and feasts. But I am content to attend a very reverent NO (ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, excellent preaching and ars celebrandi) as our family attending Mass together on the weekend (due to my working for an Anglican congregation on Sunday mornings) and I work toward the restoration of the fullness of liturgy in the NO as well as the EF in other places. Deo gratias that we have both available--even if it means a 150-mile-round-trip.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That's the problem in my area: there aren't many options available for attending. There is one church in the Indianapolis area that I know of that offers EF on a regular schedule. I've heard of one other but I haven't been able to confirm if they actually offer it or not. I think it needs to be more available than it is, although I know that the Church does not have to offer it unless there is a significant population of adherents that desire it. Even then, the Church does not specify how it should be offered: that's where we get one church for 100 mile radius at offers EF.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I'm not averse to EF liturgy. I find that the OF is just more practical in your average parish situation. I do look to the older miss to try and program music that pays respect to the traditions of the church. For example, I believe that hymns should supplement rather than replace propers, but I am aware that they are a legitimate option of "alius cantus aptus."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have nothing against the EF liturgy, and it is fine for those who want it. I am not one of those who do. It was a liturgy in need of reform, and as it exists in the 1962 missal, has been reformed, although those reforms were minor. The actual conciliar reforms were good, but I admit things did go off the tracks a bit in the late seventies.

    Gregorian chant is beautiful, but like any other music, can wear out its welcome if it is the only type of music used. I keep some of it in the OF mass, and the blend seems to work well. But I am well aware that most of the congregation doesn't understand more than a word or two of Latin, and never will. The significance of the texts is lost on them.

    Propers and hymns. Will this battle ever end? In some instances, both can be used. In others, it doesn't work well on a practical level.

    All of us except Adam, who has proclaimed himself as accountable to no one on another thread, will in practice do what the pastors tell us to do. I still think Mrs. Wood may give him a good wedgie over that statement. LOL.

    As to the choice between the EF and OF, if I didn't work for the Latins I would say neither. When I retire, I will return to my Byzantine church. Let me know how the Propers/Hymns war turns out. It will still be ongoing then, I am sure.
    Thanked by 2ronkrisman Paul F. Ford
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    things did go off the tracks a bit in the late seventies

    off the tracks a bit

    a bit


    image
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    "et alius cantus aptus"

    "or another appropriate song"

    Perhaps no clause has been abused so much as this since the 1970s.

    The use of the psalms for go with propers varies considerably. It is well known the Psalm 34 is an ad libitum for communion as it has by ancient tradition been sung at communion and may replace any other prescribed psalm at communion in any mass.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Actually more than a bit, but I am trying to not start a war. I once saw a cartoon where an organist was on an operating table getting his heels removed so he could play Bach authentically. That was based on prevailing, but bad scholarship, since scores have been found with Bach's heel markings. Unfortunately, many liturgists were equally misinformed. For some reason, we do seem to have lived through an age of extremes, and in some places, liturgical practices have certainly been extreme. But that didn't happen everywhere.

    Now about that wedgie. Where does the line form? I suspect it will be more than a bit long. ;-)
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Responding to the original post...I love both forms, and would attend either, done well.
    Thanked by 3Chris Allen CHGiffen kenstb
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Gosh, I don't remember starting this conversation. I must have been in my youth at the time!
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Both, with my heart pulling more toward the EF. I've gone more that direction since 2011. I love the layers, and the prayers.

    But let me be clear, I'd prefer an OF Missa Cantata to and EF Low Mass.

    All things being equally robust and done with the most solemn options within the form, EF for me.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Chris Allen
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