Do parishes need to buy a new hymnal for the new Missal?
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I deliberately phrased that so it would get hits on Google.

    Again, on behalf of the average volunteer music leader. This is based on what I learned from the other discussions.

    Do parishes need to bother with buying a new hymnal?

    The Psalms are still using the Grail translation, so nothing is changed there.

    The major publishers are pushing their own settings of the Mass. However, ICEL and the Bishops in general would like to see more uniformity and so are asking that the laity get used to the Missal chants, which are beautiful. These can be put in a five page booklet.

    Right there, you eliminate any need for a new hymnal.

    For the other parts of the Mass, perhaps a new type of hymnal is needed, or no hymnal at all.

    For the Entrance (by implication) and for the Offertory (explicitly), GIRM now requires that the proper antiphons be chanted for the entire procession. I haven't checked, but I am pretty sure that entrance antiphons for every Sunday and Feast are not included in most hymnals. Certainly, the offertories aren't even mentioned or given much shrift.

    Therefore, it would seem to make more sense to attend for a while to learning the new Missal and then making a decision.

    Thoughts? This is designed to be something useful who Googles "new hymnal." Therefore, please keep the soapboxing to a minimum. Myself, I wish we just used Gregorian Chant and polyphony, but that just ain't gonna happen, as they say in the movies.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Good idea to fix this mis-impression.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I assume, Jeff, since you advised a young new music director some time ago to try and do without a hymnal for a year, that what you mean is, it is a good idea to try and fix the impression that you need to buy a new hymnal, which, frankly, is being created by publishers?

    In the copy of W*****p on my desk, I see a couple of hundred pages of "service" music that is never used, as most parishes outside my archdiocese seem to use the same songs over and over again.

    One archdiocese had on its website a "sing through" sponsored by (fill in the name of the publisher), whose purpose can only have been promotional.

    Try as I might, I see no need to jump into something while the congregation is struggling to learn the new Missal. Or will in fact the hymnals just be more of the same old?
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Why did I even ask that last question?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I don't intend to buy one. When the revised Grail psalms are put into use, I likely will buy one then.
  • JacobFlahertyJacobFlaherty
    Posts: 337
    Hello folks,

    I might be the young man Jeffrey had written to a while back. I tend to agree with you about this false impression out there that we "need a hymnal." No doubt GIA, OCP, and the other main groups out there try to make you think you can't get by without one, especially their product.

    As a church musician, I can testify to just how many pieces of junk mail I get every week, full of obsessively happy, smiling congregation members clearly holding up the 'brand' of missalette or hymnal they are pushing. Or in these flyers the descriptions they give to their Mass settings..."timeless, thrilling, versatile..." Blah, blah, blah.

    But however I might feel about it, some pastors desire for the people to have something in front of them. Mine is thinking that, ok, they had the OCP 'Spirit and Song'. If we just omit any hymnal, it's like quitting cold turkey. You need to come off of your addiction. And remember, the addiction is not just to hymns, but to egregious anti-Catholic folk songs that celebrate "me, we, and I."

    That is why I've been pushing Jeffrey Ostrowski's V2 Hymnal. It provides the people hymns without the humanism. It also provides the propers, the quality ordinaries, and helps build a culture for accepting a kind of Catholicism they have never known or probably even heard of. 95% of my parishioners don't know what a 'Proper is or refers to. 95% of the people think it's ok to have a folk band in church. They will never get there without being immersed in a culture of beauty. Jeffrey's hymnal does that. So, while I would be ok without it, I already know the culture. I want to teach others to spiritually know and enjoy that culture, too.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    "some pastors desire for the people to have something in front of them."

    That's very interesting. I've suspected something like this for a long time. I wonder what that's all about. Does it have anything to do with a celebrant's desire for the people to do something other than stare at him the entire Mass? This must be annoying and unnerving. I wonder if this is one result of Mass facing the people, i.e. turned inward?
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Let me stress that my point in putting this question up to be found on Google in the hope that parishes will take time to discover the Vatican II hymnal, which looks wonderful, or something else that suits their needs. The website of a "certain major publisher" can only be described as dishonest in the extreme.

    If parishes concentrate on learning the new Missal and pray over the GIRM's new requirements, who knows where they will end up in a year?

    But as Jeff and JIF have described, publishers are bum-rushing parishes into hasty decisions.

    Kenneth
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "some pastors desire for the people to have something in front of them."

    Three words:
    Printed.
    Worship.
    Aid.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    "As a church musician, I can testify to just how many pieces of junk mail I get every week, full of obsessively happy, smiling congregation members clearly holding up the 'brand' of missalette or hymnal they are pushing."

    Aren't they required by law to note that these are actors, not actual Catholics at worship....actual pictures would not be as....appealing or supportive of the need to buy the books.
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    Does a parish NEED a new hymnal? No. But if the current choice is unsatisfactory, now is a perfect time to change to something better. The reality is that most parishes run on inertia, and if they're using Breaking Bread now, not only will they likely use exclusively OCP Mass settings for the new translation, but they'll probably still be using Breaking Bread twenty years from now, too. If you're a pastor or music director and want to make a change, now is the time to do it.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,198
    Breaking Bread: must be broke(n). But...

    (in the well-worn wisdom of tradition): If it ain't broke(n), don't fix it.

    How utterly wrong.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    "Aren't they required by law to note that these are actors, not actual Catholics at worship....actual pictures would not be as....appealing or supportive of the need to buy the books."

    Noel, the real Catholics are the ones in flip-flops, cut-off shorts, and with bare midriffs. That wouldn't be good advertising.

    As for the hymnal, we will buy a new one in 2 or 3 more years. However, the publishers and others are making millions on the changes in the revised missal. These changes are minor and subtle, and too much time, ink, and talk have been expended on them. My congregation is tired of hearing about it.
  • JacobFlahertyJacobFlaherty
    Posts: 337
    CharlesW,

    I think you're right on. This whole thing kind of stinks to high heaven, if you ask me. It feels like we're in a sort of virtual temple, (not this website) with the money changers making their extremely lucrative share of the treasures. This new translation change has got the major publishers seeing green, and they're loving it. It's frankly pathetic. I'm tired of hearing "what a big change this is going to be and how we've got to be ready." It's like we're Floridians bracing for the next big hurricane.

    The Vatican II Hymnal is a right move for us because it promotes beauty, something that can never be separated from God. It's not a piece of paper that can (and will be crumpled up) between the four Masses we have; that to me is a less worthy, less beautiful kind of art work than a sturdy, God-centered, Christ-loving hymnal, a hymnal that also includes the Propers of the Mass (so that the people can follow along as we sing the SEP), many beautiful ordinaries that, at the very least, the choir can follow, and an order of Mass, both in the vernacular and the Latin, as well as the Tridentine Order of Mass. How many of any of our parishioners know really anything about a so-called 'Extraordinary' form? I know mine don't.

    If I printed a printed worship aid, it would be seen as "the next thing Flaherty cooked up for us". It, rightly or wrongly, wouldn't be seen as an expression of or a connection to a whole body of orthodox Catholicism that has been covered up by the muck of humanism all of these years. Something like the Vat. II Hymnal takes all of the 'secretive' treasures orthodox Catholicism has been holding on to and stamps a sort of recognitio on it. If I died tomorrow, the work at restoring my parish's sacred music would die with me IF I made programs every week. Like the monks of Ireland who made copies of many manuscripts that would have been completely lost in the Barbarian invasions, the beauty of Catholic tradition, as presented in music and art, will "live on" in my parish, even without me because of things like this hymnal.

    To top that off, the hymnal also has artwork, and beautiful artwork at that. Our chalices are to be made of materials that can not break; i.e. no crystal chalices or glass ones. Are not the printed worship aids like the breakable material? I don't dispute nor question the validity of those who say that they prefer or financially need to go with something like printed worship aids. But I do think there are dangers of casuality in this, too.

    Lastly, Mr. Tucker, I agree with you in that some priests probably do feel intimidated by everyone's eyes; bring on the ad-orientem! I'm afraid the new translation of the Mass will not completely fix the opposite problem - the 'actor-presider' who just loves a show.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    i make two or three worship aids a year. i dont like the pschological disposition of a "throw away service" and would much prefer the permanance of a hard bound book, but that means the church commits itself to a music program when it does, and i think churches are hesitant to do so this day and age. it is all a dilema.

    If I could ever have the ideal, it would be turn the priest around, let the choir sing the propers and give the congregation a PBC. I suspect that's how it is in heaven.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I suspect that's how it is in heaven.

    Really?
    I'll assume you're joking.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Adam, I took Francis' take as allegorical, in alignment with the Scott Hahn theses advanced in his "Supper of the Lamb" correlation of Revelation to the Divine Liturgy. YMMV
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    In the past year that I have been at my parish, we have been using printed worship aids in lieu of the big green Glory & Praise that has been in the pew (they've had nothing but Glory & Praise for 30+ years). We initially considered continuing this practice without getting any new hymnal.

    But the problem is that to the average parishioner in the pew, having a worship aid alone makes our new parish music program seem like it's an invention of our priests. Having a solid, published book with actual sacred music might give us legitimacy to a lot of people, even though a hymnal isn't a Church document. Most Catholics who don't frequent this forum think "If it's in our hymnal, it must be ok to sing" and rightly so. To most pew Catholics, a hymnal is "official" just because it's published and has a forward that's written by a bishop. It wouldn't occur to them that a publisher could print a hymnal with "bad" church music in it.

    Ergo we are also seriously considering the Vatican II Hymnal...not because it's necessary to have a hymnal, but because it helps make us look more official and show people that it's not JUST our priests who are "going this direction" with music. Also, we will use the propers, so it helps to have those already printed.

    Jon
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    JIF,

    Thank you for your kind words about the Vatican II Hymnal.

    In a special way, I appreciate the fact that you have (rightly) observed that it allows people to sing whichever version of the Propers they like (SEP, Graduale Romanum, Psalm Tone, etc.) or, for those not prepared to do this, it also includes hymns and Responsorial Psalms.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    Adam

    Jesus spoke directly to Peter about the specifics of the publishing arm of the Church:

    "Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven"

    Matthew:18:18

    :-)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    But the problem is that to the average parishioner in the pew, having a worship aid alone makes our new parish music program seem like it's an invention of our priests. Having a solid, published book with actual sacred music might give us legitimacy to a lot of people, even though a hymnal isn't a Church document.

    Who, in your congregation, has the requisite education to challenge a priest when it comes to legitimacy of a liturgy? (I'm not knocking you....) Catholics who act and talk this way really are not Catholics. There's a parish near here that a friend staffs. A musicologist from UT attends MAss and writes a long letter telling her all the things that are wrong with her choir and tells her she needs to to so and so from UT to come and solve all these awful problems.

    She called me in tears. I suggested calling the !@#$^% and telling her that if she wants to join the choir and be part of the program she's welcome, otherwise she should shut the @#$%^ (insert your own mild obscenity here) up!

    She laughed. And then retired to a life happier than one she had there.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    FNJ

    (btw... my initials are FNJK) Guess we are cut from the same cloth.

    Heretics are a dime a dozen

    Consider not their wayfaring thoughts that wander far from truth...

    but do pray hard for their souls.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    May I suggest that it is not a new parish music program in the sense that it is not yesterday, nor tomorrow, it is now. Your music program is now. It is the sum of everything that has gone before and tomorrow will be better or worse depending on the magic of having a dream, a dream that is in your own heart. Once that dream is in place, you may find it much easier to listen to and discard anything that is goes against your dream. You do not need to share your dream with people who can or will not understand it. They will only come around to your way of thinking if you pursue the dream regardless of them.

    Share your dream with your pastor. If he doesn't share it, quit and find one that does. Remember, it is not our job to convince people in the pews that better music belongs in the church because they do not sign your paycheck and they have absolutely no voice in the liturgy, how it is celebrated, how long it takes. Priests must be the ones who your music elevates to a higher plane.

    But if you have a pastor who is continually working to make Mass get over in under 60 minutes....he's not being led by the holy spirit, but instead by creatires of clay.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Noel, that was as eloquent as it was candid, bravo.
    I have to say that it has been my experience that no pastor will share "the dream" with a prospective or long tenured DM with more than a fifty-fifty synchronicity. So, if a DM abandons a position with at least that amount of support, it's a lose-lose-lose for DM/PIPs/Pastor. And do not ever underestimate the ongoing effect a truly pastoral (see Pennington, Jason) musician have upon the PIPs. If one endures the slings/arrows from both sides, one will gain trust from all quarters, and that doesn't require becoming a cultic, demigogic mastermind. We won't find Fr. Christopher Smiths, Jeffrey Keyes or Robert Skeris's with an open wallet accompanying their open mind and hearts everywhere. You have to work, and stay working. That's my story, I've stuck with it ad nauseum. And besides, if you act like a musical Diogenes looking for the perfect cleric, you yourself have succumbed to clericalism. They are guys. They need honesty, but not in the form of intransient ideology.
    Being Catholic sometimes requires us to be catholic.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Well said, all.
    Who, in your congregation, has the requisite education to challenge a priest when it comes to legitimacy of a liturgy? (I'm not knocking you....) Catholics who act and talk this way really are not Catholics.

    None that I know of. But they have been led to believe that they do. But my priests' concern isn't so much for those who have a personal agenda (and the parish was run for a while on personal agendas) since most of them have been leaving anyway, but those parishioners who have just gone with the flow, liturgically. Some of them are Sunday Catholics, and some of them are "good" Catholics -- they pray the rosary, teach their children to pray and love God and neighbor, donate time and money generously to the parish, pay attention during homilies, are gracious toward myself and my singers.....and are utterly bewildered, saddened, and confused when introduced to chant and when an entrance hymn is suddenly replaced by the introit.

    So it's one thing to lose the people who leave because they aren't getting their way; it's another thing to lose touch with the group I've just described. They've been taught to have an emotional connection with liturgical music in a way that distorts the actual purpose of that music (i.e., glory of God, sanctification of the faithful, expressing the text, etc., not "make Mass more interesting and attractive"). They weren't necessarily concerned when the music started being more "traditional," but much to my surprise, they seemed like they were hit by a 2x4 when propers started making their way in.

    So on the one hand we grant that yes, it's objectively better to make changes faster rather than slower. And on the other hand we ask, will we lose the "good Catholics" in the process? In the end, we're working out an approach that will move a bit slower, and allow for a reasonable amount of catechesis before certain changes take place. It gets us to the same place, but we might bring more people with us this way, even if it is slower than I would PERSONALLY like to go.

    Of course there's also the small contingent who is always 200% supportive. I couldn't do my job without them.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Being Catholic sometimes requires us to be catholic.

    I appreciated the articles by Fr. Smith and Kurt Poterack in the Summer 2011 "Sacred Music" issue. If I may quote:
    "We should always challenge ourselves as to how we enter into the Mystery of Salvation, of how our celebration of the Paschal Mystery is not bound to criticism, but to glory." (Fr. Smith)

    "I sometimes think that traditional-ists act like they live in caves with internet-access. Do they not have families, or got to work, or have to deal with their fellow man? Evidently, they haven't had much experience trying to persuade people with points of view other than their own, or they somehow think the church is not, in addition to being a divine society, a very human society." (Kurt)

    I'm constantly praying for humility and patience, because those are the first two things to go out the window when I get worked up about one or another liturgical thing.

    Jon
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