Odd question about expenses
  • G
    Posts: 1,387
    Some of you may recall that I had questions about ordination to the diaconate.
    As planning progresses, some suggestions have been made by other people involved.... NUMEROUS other people involved.
    To preface this, I don't usually buy many octavos, and NEVER for psalms.
    If there isn't a suitable setting in our hymnal or periodical missalette, I write one or use the Chabanel psalter.
    A psalm was suggested, and I looked it up on GIA, and IT COSTS $4.50!!!!!!!
    Isn't that, just a BIT outrageous?
    Am I reading something wrong?
    I know most people reading here probably wouldn't go near such settings, but does anyone know, are these things published with some kind of automatic, make-all-the-copies-you-want license?
    Otherwise, by the time you take care of a (23 voice) choir and a cantor and an organist , you're talking about well over a hundred bucks, not counting tax and shipping.
    For the first time in my current position I'm GLAD that my pastor is a tightwad, so I have a built in excuse.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I personally doubt that there is much of a future in these kinds of things. ridiculous. Better to use parish resources to pay musicians, not publishers.
  • Cantor
    Posts: 84
    That’s a suspiciously high price for a GIA octavo; they usually price their pieces comparatively to how other publishers price them.

    Re the as-many-copies-as-you-need license, maybe if enough of us bug St. James about it, they’ll put together a Lectionary psalter for U.S. Catholics. Or, for that matter, a collection of Marian choral works. They apparently don’t particularly care to market to Catholic churches.

    I would pick up an octavo of, say, Psalm 23 or another text that we use a lot were it a very good setting with the Lectionary’s (or other approved) text. But, for that particular psalm I already have two settings that work very well where I am, so I see little need for anything else.

    Now, bear in mind that you may not need to purchase copies of the music for every person in the choir. If all the choir sings is the people’s response, exactly as printed for the people, my understanding is that the choir, then, is “part of the congregation” and thus doesn’t need to have purchased copies. I am not a lawyer, though.

    The publisher whose charges are ridiculous is Universal.

    I’ve had very good experiences, by the way, with University Music. They give you an automatic discount of 20% on most choral orders of over 20 copies, with an “early bird” special that offers 25% off if you order in advance and don’t need the music until August or something. And no tax. :)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I find the "OneLicense" program to be rather generous: you pay a flat fee and you may copy any music you require.
  • G
    Posts: 1,387
    "I find the "OneLicense" program to be rather generous: you pay a flat fee and you may copy any music you require."

    Well, no, I don't think so... I believe that one is still not allowed to copy choral or accompaniment parts under OneLicense.

    "That’s a suspiciously high price for a GIA octavo; they usually price their pieces comparatively to how other publishers price them."
    I was surprised as well -- that was why i thought I might be misreading.

    "Now, bear in mind that you may not need to purchase copies of the music for every person in the choir. If all the choir sings is the people’s response,"

    I think this is SATB ...other than Taize refrains, perhaps, I don't think I've ever seen harmony provided in the reprint "box."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,250
    Who is behind onelicense? I cannot seem to find the corporate entity. In other words, into whose pocket is our money going if we subscribe?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Dear G,

    If you are writing Responsorial Psalms, why not submit them to the Chabanel site, so that others may learn from your settings?

    As you probably know, we already have (free) settings by Gary Penkala, Sam Schmitt, Brian Michael Page, Arlene Oost-Zinner, Fr. Jeffrey Keyes, Cal Leferink, Justin Berg, and several other excellent composers. They are all different, so they give folks a lot of options.
  • I wonder about this OneLicense thing. I mean, what are you actually buying? Freedom from being clubbed in the head for using your property as you see fit. It sounds more like a shakedown to me.
  • OneLicense allows you to reprint copyrighted material from certain publishers in order to facilitate congregational singing.

    For example, my parish usually uses Gelineau or Guimont responsorial psalms, for which we need the OneLicense.net license to reprint the music of the congregation’s response. We also sing Joncas “Take and Eat” and a few other GIA tunes that are not in Breaking Bread, which we have in the pews.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,250
    I am very actively seeking a solution. At the moment we have WLP missalette. It is the Eng/Span edition. It is very weak at best, and I think it may be the best of the big three at that.

    I am looking for a worship aid solution and am getting ready to produce my own weekly leaflets. I am thinking PD is the best way to go. I have a collection of 30-40 hymnals that I could easily transcribe into Sib which is VERY FAST. It seems that any license is for one thing: to pay for new text translations. Am I right? Most all of the tunes are PD. Am I mistaken?

    PS. OK... some of you are going to have a horse over this comment, but, OneLicense seems like the One World Church for musicians. I would much rather (as a musician of the RCC) put my resources into the CMAA and promote the OneTrueCatholicMusic of the OneTrueFaith.
  • Many/most of the texts you find in hymnals with those PD tunes are also PD. And certainly any tune written in the past 75 years or so remains under copyright...which includes, yes, a lot of tripe, but also good, solid stuff like Hillert “Festival Canticle” and Proulx “Mass for the City”. Incidentally, both of those are covered under OneLicense.net.

    By the by, OCP and WLP are not under OneLicense.net. OCP has LicenSingOnline.org, and WLP has their own (that I think lacks a fancy name).
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,250
    Felipe:

    Thanks for the info. I cannot find any licensing under WLP. (I am purposely avoiding OCP).

    All:

    Where can I download a .txt file of all PD texts in a single file (if one exists at all)? I am going on a Sib transcription rampage.(will make them all available to everyone for free as I produce them over time)
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Our (Baptist) church has a CCLI license (which is similar in intent, I think, though not in sources covered, to OneLicense). One of the little things that irritates my increasingly (with age) irritable irritability buttons is seeing my church produce copies of thoroughly PD songs (both as to text and as to music) with a "CCLI #..." footnote. I think this is tantamount to aiding and abetting what Jeffrey Tucker called a "shakedown". Like Hal Leonard's claim to have the melody line of "Stille Nacht" under a copyright dating back less than ten years. Such felonious fictions ought not to be given supporting documentation.

    Leland
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,250
    Leland:

    The publishers own the music just as much as mankind owns the wind.

    "They know not from whence it cometh nor where it goeth."
  • Leland
    Posts: 32
    Agreed. Incidentally on the issue of copyright (civil, not canon) law, I agree with the founding fathers (don't recall which ones or where) who held that a seven-year copyright with one seven-year renewal was appropriate protection for intellectual property. Can you imagine how much freer we would all be if nothing more than 14 years old was under ©... ?

    Leland
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,191
    OneLicense.net is a clearing house for copyright permissions, run under the auspices of GIA (which is why OCP and WLP aren't a part of it, but have their own clearing houses).

    No matter what licencing clearing house you go through, you need to be extremely careful when using their services. I have made several costly mistakes using texts that I thought were secured through OneLicense that ended up not being so, and had to pay painfully high royalties for one Sunday's worth of service leaflets to a company that doesn't normally deal with churches, but held the copyright on a hymn text because it came out of a collection of poetry they published.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    Francis,

    Good question (the one about who gets the money).

    Good observation - put the money into activities that benefit your parish directly.

    "OK... some of you are going to have a horse over this comment, but, OneLicense seems like the One World Church for musicians."

    Surreal!