• Claire H
    Posts: 370
    I know that recorded music is forbidden during the Liturgy, but what directives are avialable concerning the practice of musicians preparing their own "back up" tracks (additional instrumentation) and playing these pre-recorded tracks underneath their own keyboard playing? This is a method I find commonly employed by Spanish musicians.

    Thank you to everyone for being so continually receptive to and patient with my need for resources and answers!
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    This is from De musica sacra et sacra liturgia, Instruction on Sacred Music and Sacred Liturgy, Sacred Congregation for Rites – September 3, 1958:

    “71. The use of automatic instruments and machines, such as the automatic organ, phonograph, radio, tape or wire recorders, and other similar machines, is absolutely forbidden in liturgical functions and private devotions, whether they are held inside or outside the church, even if these machines be used only to transmit sermons or sacred music, or to substitute for the singing of the choir or faithful, or even just to support it.”

    If the Spanish are doing it, you can probably 'get away" with it, if that's your standard. But the text above doesn't seem to allow any wiggle room.
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • If the Liturgy Police don't visit certain gignormous religious education confabs, chances are they won't visit St. Martha Relaxes with St. Mary and Jesus RCC in your neighborhood.
    It's not like they're outside the Club House of Alcoholic Bikers Club waiting with their ticket books.
  • JQ, you visit Anaheim? Hmmmm.
  • Holy Moly!! We've been using an electric organ for years in the Grotto for Feast of the Assumption! I wonder if my very traditional musician pastor knows? Should I tell him? {evil grin}
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Ruth, I don't think 'automatic' means 'electric.' I know a musician who can set up the organ so it can play automatically without the player. It's like a recording, but the keys of the organ goes up and down and changes the registrations too.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    >>the keys of the organ goes up and down and changes the registrations too.

    They have a harpsichord like that in the Haunted Mansion at Disney World.
  • I am the Liturgy Police, mwahaha!
    http://jeffreyquick.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/st-mary-st-joseph-newton-falls-oh

    Do you leave mystery worshipper cards in the offering?

    image


    www.shipoffools.com
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Interesting... A couple years ago when I was in Miami, Archbishop Favalora (at the time) had instructed parishes to play a video of him (and others) - I happened to see it twice - at one parish as part of the homily and at another after communion - addressing all congregations at the start of the annual charity appeal. I would say that would count as transmitting a recorded sermon.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    Sorry, Charles, haven't flown since before 9/11, don't intend to start now unless there's absolutely no way around it. FNJ, you're right, this should really be Mystery Worshipper material, but I'm too informal for that. I should check though and see if any local RC parishes have been done. St. James AC got written up when I was there...pretty positively overall.
  • Noel, I KNEW that was you behind the mask! I love SoF reports!
    Ap. Favalora video....argggh, for many reasons.
    As regards the serious aspects concerning "live" performance issues, I recall back in the mid-seventies WLP had an octavo motet by SF State composer Herbert Bielewa that was meant to be chorally sung with a tape recording of ambient sounds (I assume some sort of Moog and/or concrete assemblage.) I don't think it was a best seller for them, but it did make their choral sampler book that year. That sticks in my memory as I found it interesting that Omer Westendorf thought it worthy as some sort of momentous intersection of contemporaneous art with sacred choral tradition. But of course, we have hindsight to realize that "experiment" had more than sonic dissonance, but also that of the obvious fact the medium called attention to itself.
    The one sure thing that receives a consensus endorsement in these here parts is that the live human voice remains the only instrument elevated above all others as "ideal" for praising God, again for obvious reasons. But from there, we still have issues over whether voices singing in unison monophony best exemplifies that ideal; witness the monk's cliche that chanting went downhill when some wiseguy in a habit decided to break off into organum. So, we're back to unison: does that mean if we all sing "Abba Father" a capella in unison that ideal is upheld? Hmmm?
    My point, and I do have one, is that discretion in all our matters liturgical can lead to valor. Okay, the taped Bielewa piece was indulgent. But there aren't some heavy metal Life Teen Bands, all playing "live" at Mass that, however noble of intent, ultimately are distractive from fit worship? Wobbly soprano sections? Organists who use tremulant unceasingly? So, industrial liturgical karaoke? No!!! Playerless organ sequences for hymn accompaniment? No!!!
    A homegrown sequence of integral sound that elevates the singing voices in a reverent and potentially profound way? That's innovation. Maybe I need to use some discrimination and discretion before I answer that one.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    >>does that mean if we all sing "Abba Father" a capella in unison that ideal is upheld?

    We'd have to sing it in Latin.

    Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-teeeeeeeeeer. Pa-a-ter, Pa-a-ter.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    I recall Salvatore Martirano telling of an electronic piece he had written for a friend's wedding, to take place in a church in Italy. During the rehearsal, the priest interrupted the music, "You can't play that here; it's an affront to God!"
    "What kind of music does God like?"
    "Gregorian chant." Well, it happened that there was Gregorian chant in the piece. When it was pointed out to the priest, he said, "God only likes Gregorian chant as used in the masses of Palestrina."
    "God has pretty narrow tastes, doesn't He?"
    "Yes, God does."

    As a composer, I'd like all boundaries to be open. And the history of Catholic church music is of composers pushing the envelope, in both positive and negative ways. But as a Catholic church musician, I'm aware that 95% of all Catholic church music performances could be replaced with recordings for an immediate aesthetic and budgetary improvement. There's certainly a different of intent between Bielawa's tape and Your Favorite Catholic Publisher's accompaniment tracks, but could you write that difference into church law? I'd be happy not to be able to do certain things musically, if it means that church musicians remain employed; this is one of the few situations where the Church's social teaching is applied to musicians. And I'd like to continue to praise God with my art, in a live situation, inadequate though my musicianship might be to the task.
  • Jeffrey, you know I wasn't advocating, just pondering, yes?
    Just had to let a "wedding singer/family member" know that, uh "no, you can't use your karaoke version of that country rock love song by Alabama" at your auntie's wedding Mass. Not gonna happen.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Adam, to save you redoing the job: "Abba Father" was already adapted into Latin by a seminarian at the NAC back in the '80s:

    "Abba, Abba Pater / Tu es nos figulus; / Argilla sumus / et opus tuum. /
    Forma, forma et finge nos / in tui imaginem / Filii Iesu / Filii Iesu. /
    Gloria, Gloria lausque / tibi in saecula / saeculorum, amen; / saeculorum, amen.
    Abba!"
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    That is not an improvement.
  • I know Cardinal Maida used to have taped addresses sent out to all parishes in the Archdiocese once a year. Have not heard anything like it from our new Archbishop.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    I can't find it right now, but I seem to remember a Vatican document that actually recommends bishops use recorded homilies at times. In my diocese, it's just done for the annual fund-raising appeal.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    Adam

    Abba Father is beyond improving in any language.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    In St. Louis, we have a video homily at least twice a year. One is a video from the archdiocese for the Annual Catholic Appeal, while another is usually one the parish does. If I recall correctly, parishes are not *required* to show the video as a homily, but one priest who did not (he did it at a forum outside Mass, reasoning that those who give will give, and so on) was not looked upon kindly. I remember that he did touch upon it in his homily, and his parish's ACA goal was surpassed for the first time in years...
  • Boy, this brought out the best in everyone!

    In general, I dislike "karaoke offertories," as one person once put it, but then a very nice quiet lady surprised everyone by standing up and singing a beautiful simple song accompanied by a recording of an accompaniment on damped guitar strings. But the mention of guitar raises all the same issues: in seems that the guitar is used to produce beautiful, contemplative music, except in Christian Churches. You can buy "Music Minus One" recordings for Brahms lieder, but you don't hear anything of that caliber in Church. Anything that's not from the Catholic Tradition, it shows up in Church in its kitschiest, least appealing form. Why? Well...

    The Church document cited is from 1958. Surely things have changed. Our Cardinal uses a fully-produced recorded homily when he kicks off the annual appeal---choirs oohing, and all that. He's pretty well noted for doing things by the book. I have never heard him say Mass with anything other than the Roman Canon, e.g., so I was wondering if there are any more recent church documents.

    As for Spanish music, I moved to the border of a Hispanic neighborhood and simply could not hear the beauty of Spanish music. I deliberately set out to learn about it, in part because I took seriously JPII's injunction to see the beauty in all cultures. I now play commendable congas, but, if you are talking about Central America, there's a lot of what we call "bad taste," and I am not sure we are the best judges of how they are hearing it.
  • Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting, my name's Kenneth. Didn't enter the form right when I signed up.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    my name's Kenneth

    WHAT'S THE FREQUENCY?!?!


    sorry. I'm sorry.
  • Adam, you must have been one precocious kid to remember that old Dan Rather chestnut!
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    Adam, you must have been one precocious kid to remember that old Dan Rather chestnut!


    Or an R.E.M. fan! See here!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I was interested in conspiracy theories as a child.
  • Claire H
    Posts: 370
    Wow, this has gone an interesting direction...
  • Claire H
    Posts: 370
    Are there any more recent documents that speak on the subject?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Nothing more recent on the topic that I'm aware of.

    The Church's restriction on pre-recorded (etc.) has everything to do with HUMAN participation, e.g., conforming oneself to Christ in offering self to God, which is the definition of "actuosa participatio" according to liturgy experts who are not rupture-bound.

    Thus, the voice--one's own--is primary; the piped organ is next, with "other" instruments third.

    In no case did the Church contemplate remote-controlled instruments, which are obviously not "self"-offerings, but are "mechanical." It's not a coincidence that one cannot "attend" Mass over television, or via radio, folks.

    It's personal, or it's not "participatio."

    Simple, no?
  • OK, I was off for a few days, so I will simply say that for years there was just one co-worker who remembered Dan Rather's rather bizarre story. Then several people started saying it to me seemingly out of the blue. I was home from work one day, turned on MTV when it still had music. REM popped on, and that was the last time I walked out the door to go buy a CD. I got older, and nothing much excited me after that. I will always be grateful to them for finding a way to put "Kenneth" in a song. A quick check of Napster reveals nothing more than some rap "songs" either "hating on" someone named Kenneth or "feat. Kenneth (Somebody)." That, and "Kenneth Halloween DraculaTones."

    Now that we've all had the standard laugh (not that I really mind), I actually logged on to post something I thought was useful.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    Of course the ancient world had automatic instruments. There were steam-powered "music box" type machines, and of course there were a good many steam-powered twittering birds that "sang" tunes. These were used in pagan temples and in secular imperial settings. They were not used in Jewish or Christian worship. Later on, in medieval times, there was extensive use of water-driven and clockwork musical machinery. Churches didn't use it for anything but clocks and festive special effects (most often on the outside of the church, though occasionally with indoor church clocks).

    And then there were slave musicians of every kind, hired out. There were times when the Church dabbled in some very dubious stuff, but I don't think anybody has ever permitted masters to hire out slave musicians for church music. Neither did Jewish tradition. This was not true of most pagan traditions.

    A live instrument played by a live musician, from Jewish and early Christian times on, has often been used as a symbol of the relationship between body and soul, or between God and the believer. To play a live instrument is to be joyful; to sing is to be joyful and wise, and to be like a lover.

    Secular music has its own ways of doing things and much broader discretion, as we know.

    But when it comes to liturgical religious music? Using pre-programmed synth, or pre-recorded accompaniment tracks, is pretty much the same as declaring that God doesn't work with us on a free will basis, or of using slave musicians. It's not joyful in a spiritual sense; it's chained. It distrusts God and one's own skills, as if saying that a canned supposed-perfection is better than personal prayer and personal offering. It's like paying somebody to kiss your husband better than you can alone. It's like telling people that it would be better for them to stay home and just pay professional Massgoers to go to Mass for them. Better no music than this kind of sacrilege.

    But of course, the only reason people do it is because they don't know any better. People aren't used to thinking the way the Church through history has thought.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Of all the liturgical goofery I've either witnessed, instigated, or been a party to in my life, one of my most-shameful moments was playing a Gloria off my laptop through the church organ's midi input.
    I was subbing one single Mass at a parish, on piano. I mostly did fine, but I couldn't learn the Gloria. I knew they had a midi input on their electric organ, so I sequenced it and was ready to go. I knew it wasn't great, but I thought it was better than nothing. (And they knew my skill level when they asked me to sub.)

    It was the most sad and lifeless Gloria I've ever sung. The technically-perfect playback had an eerie, detached quality to it, and the tempo (steady throughout) felt either too fast or too slow at every moment. No breath, no soul, no life. Nada.

    If the badness intrinsic to the form wasn't enough, I had a technical glitch that caused the last chord to not cut off. It just kept screaming away. It takes a second too long to notice that a note is going on longer than it should, and then I panicked and couldn't figure out what to do. I finally shut the organ off with a loud power-switch ka-chunk.

    Oh how I wish I had been keen on unaccompanied music back then as I am now.

    They never asked me to sub there again, which was (of course) better for all of us.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Maureen, you've done an EXCELLENT job there!
  • Oh Adam how embarrassing. Of course we have all had our embarrassing moments as musicians. Mine was on stage in front of a packed house!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    It was terrible!
    This is the sort of thing that happens when you have a culture completely convinced that you can't sing without accompaniment.
    There's an Episcopal parish in this Diocese that does the midi-through-organ thing at their Saturday evening service every single week.
    Goodness gracious!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    Ruth... you've baited us!

    Adam, playing party to liturgical abuse, (out of ignorance), many of us have been in the same situation. It is shame that never goes away.

    Maureen... well said.

    Shadowing Maureens thoughts, my poem entitled "Vox"

    Vox
    Human voice
    Unclothed
    Unadorned
    Takes to the air
    Like an arrow
    To the ears of God
    Path to His Heart
    Caressed and beloved
    Kiss from the soul

    Copyright © 2011 Francis Koerber, all rights reserved.
    (Feel free to share this with credit attached)
    Thanked by 2Jenny tomboysuze
  • Thanks Francis I would like to share it with my ladies schola!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    it is free to share with all
    and is the rightful property of every schola cantorum
  • Claire H
    Posts: 370

    I need to bring this up again because the school music teacher here asked me this morning about playing a recorded accompaniment for a song the 2nd-graders will sing during on their upcoming First Communion Mass. Apparently she doesn't have a copy of the accompaniment music.

    Does something like this apply? I am not in charge of selecting, teaching, or directing this song (she can tend to pick things that I wouldn't necessarily choose), so I'm not sure what type of piece it is. I told her I would "check with Father" (who says he prefers no recorded tracks, although if he knew the details perhaps he'd okay this one).

    I'm not sure how big of a deal to make of it...

    Does the directive from the 1958 document (second post in this thread) still completely apply? As others have mentioned in this thread, recorded homilies to give a message from the bishop seem to be commonly used (something forbidden according to that quote).
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    I second Claire's question...

    Is there a more recent directive that can help us?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    The directive was reaffirmed in 1967 and 1977, though with -- alas -- one exception. The Congregation for Divine Worship stated in its newsletter Notitiae (volume 13, 1977, number 94):

    The entire liturgy rests upon the use of signs and to be effective these signs must be authentic and truthful. The reform and sensitive adaptation of the liturgy has this as one of its main purposes. Sacred music and singing are signs and signs that are to be expressed as authentic and truthful by a living, praying, congregation of the faithful, not by a simulated congregation. Already in 1958 Pope Pius XII's Instruction De musica sacra et sacra Liturgia stated the principle that sound equipment is most useful for the learning of chants and for supporting voices during open-air processions, but that they are barred from celebrations "in a place of worship". Since that time the norms in official documents have not been changed. The one exception is the Directory for Masses with Children, which mentions use of recorded music, with, however, due caution and prudence. It is not by chance that the recent instruction of the bishops of Italy on Masses with children clearly states that the use of music which consists exclusively in recorded singing is unlawful.


    This is quoted in Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, p. 134.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    We have a priest mannequin and play the prayers through the sound system. Deals with the priest shortage once for all. Does God approve? Don't think so. The mannequin burst into flames last week during the offering of the gifts.

    You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
    you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. Psalm 51:16

    (had to get that off my chest) Sometimes I just have to participate in the craziness of what the Church has come to just to keep my sanity these days....

    As CharelsOfCenCa says, please return to your normal programming.
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I like Fr. Peter Gee's answer to this question, which was simply, "The Mass is something living."
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    JMO, thanks for that quote. That is a really good one and something we forget!

  • Actually Charles in CenCA does provide leadership for First Communions in the parochial school and for RE classes, and all music accompaniment is live. At this point in time, the repertoire isn't CMAA standard faire, but I can assure you, the level of singing by the school and CCD kids is quite exemplary, whether accompanied by guitar/piano (normal practice) and organ by my principal organist.
    I would have them sing a capella before using a karaoke CD.
    The only caveat one could argue, and I'm choosing not to argue it here and now, is the use of "home-grown" sequencing that was available to the musical consumer, not just academia. At the time of the ban on taped recordings, the concept of sequencing had not been realized. Yet at one quick review of JMO's quote, the last sentence refers specifically to "recorded singing," not accompaniment. Kind of like that fourth option, cantus=chant or song ambiguity that gives us such fits.
    Back to our regular scheduled programming.
    Thanked by 1[Deleted User]
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    I happened onto this thread by chance, but I think I'm in the twilight zone........
  • tomboysuzetomboysuze
    Posts: 289
    dan rather, mannequin priests bursting into flame (extremely chuckle-worthy) and Adam's-too-funny-hijinks-with-his-midi-file.....now the episode with the msgr. on good friday who thought the music I programmed was "too depressing" seems so minor......thank you....