Different Ordinaries -- how often?
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Long story short, my questions here for the chantosphere are as follows:

    • With the MR3, how often will you be changing settings of the Ordinary, if at all? Seasonally?
    • For those using primarily chant settings, which ones will you use? Latin, or English equivalents?


    And a bit of background: Like pretty much everyone here I'm guessing, I'm looking forward to the MR3, and the fact that the Missal chants will be included in all resources, etc. And I'm hoping that those chants are widely sung. But those Missal chants are pretty much English equivalents of the "Missa Primitiva" -- Gloria XV (which I'll like), but also the really-meant-for-weekdays Kyrie XVI and the really-meant-for-the-Requiem-Mass Sanctus XVIII and Agnus Dei XVIII.

    So, what to do? The Missal chants would be blissfully solemn, but if we're ready to move beyond that, what would be a good next-step goal?

    I have attempted -- with limited success -- having four different settings in rotation, as follows (all Latin except as indicated):

    • Ordinary time -- Gloria XV (or English/Poterack), Sanctus XIII, Agnus Dei XI (Kyrie is usually spoken)
    • Easter -- Gloria VIII (or English/Poterack), Sanctus I, Agnus Dei I (again, Kyrie is usually spoken)
    • all solemnities -- an amalgam of the above, but with Agnus Dei ad lib. #2
    • Advent & Lent -- Mass XVII


    That's not nearly the full six different settings used at the Vatican. Still, though… is it too ambitious? Am I silly for wanting to mark the change of seasons with different settings of the Ordinary? It seems like just as the congregation might be getting used to something, the season changes. Would it be better to just have a single, go-to setting? If so, what should it be?

    All of this has probably been discussed before, but with MR3 around the corner, I thought it deserved another look.
  • At the parishes where I work, we have used the same setting year-round:

    • Kyrie XVI
    • Congregational Mass Gloria (Lee)
    • Sanctus XVIII
    • Memorial Acclamation C (ICEL reverse-engineered melody)
    • Agnus XVIII


    I have proposed the following schedule, subject to change. The Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus will be in Latin, while the rest will be in English. All of the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus settings below are sourced from the Kyriale Simplex [PDF]. All English-language selections are from the Order of Mass in English [PDF] unless otherwise noted and linked.

    • Advent: Kyrie XVI, [Gloria from Mass of St. Therese of the Child Jesus (Nickel) (PDF),] Sanctus XVIII, Memorial Acclamation A, Agnus XVIII
    • Christmas—Ash Wednesday: Kyrie from Litany of Loreto, Gloria from Mass of St. Therese of the Child Jesus (Nickel), Sanctus XVIII or Sanctus X, Memorial Acclamation A, Agnus from Litany of Loreto
    • Lent: Kyrie XVI, [Gloria Simplex (Proulx),] Sanctus XVIII, Memorial Acclamation B, Agnus XVIII
    • Easter to Corpus Christi: Kyrie from the Litany of the Sacred Heart, Gloria from Mass in the Eighth Mode (Esguerra), Sanctus XIII, Memorial Acclamation B, Agnus from Litany of the Sacred Heart
    • Ordinary Time (Summer): Kyrie XVI, Gloria (ICEL), Sanctus XVIII, Memorial Acclamation C, Agnus XVIII
    • Ordinary Time (Fall): Kyrie XVI, Gloria Simplex (Proulx), Sanctus XIII, Memorial Acclamation C, Agnus ad lib. II
    • Year-Round (Sundays and solemnities): One setting of the Creed (proposed). At this point I am leaning toward English, but it's a toss-up between I, III, and The Psallite Mass setting. (The Creed generally will not be sung at vigil Masses of any nature.) If we were to choose one setting of the Creed in Latin, it would be III.


    The melodies included in the Kyriale Simplex are simple enough to facilitate seasonal rotations, and some of them are noteworthy — Sanctus XIII is particularly fine. All of them are compact enough to be used for daily Masses if desired.

    Incidentally, we will be introducing the Proulx Gloria Simplex between OT 23 and OT 26 of this year. This setting was one of two recommended by our diocesan Office of Worship as part of the early-rollout process. This will be followed by the melody of Memorial Acclamation C ("Save us, Savior of the world…") as found in the revised Missal.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks for all of this, Aristotle!

    This was the first time that I've taken a close look at the Kyriale Simplex. I was always under the impression that its contents consisted of altered, simplified melodies from the Kyriale, but I see now that instead it simply is a collection of melodies which themselves are already on the easier side of things… nothing's altered. (Am I right?!)

    (For those who might be following this thread, here is a corrected link for the Proulx Gloria Simplex. Thanks again, Aristotle, for all of these links.)

    Others?
  • Mark, as far as I can tell, nothing's altered. There are melodies for the Kyrie and Agnus Dei that I have not found in any other volume, but I will operate on the assumption that they are authentic melodies until someone informs me that they are not.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    A related question here (and a shameless thread bump): Is there any guide as to which Memorial Acclamation ought to be used when? Or is it entirely a matter of preference?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I've never heard of any rules for the use of the specific Memorial Acclamation options. At the parish where I'm currently "involved," the previous music director composed settings of "Christ has died" to go with the various Latin chant ordinaries used. Now we're transitioning out of them and going with the English chants from MR3 for the Memorial Acclamation. We decided to go with option B ("When we eat this bread...") just because it's very close to the outgoing translation (and hasn't been used there in ages).

    Maybe I'm just being simple-minded (after all it is mystery of faith), but I suppose I've always thought it was odd for that acclamation to focus on Christ's coming again, when we have just experienced the consecration, and He is present. So I suppose that gives me a slight preference for option C ("Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection you have set us free,") which focuses more directly on salvation.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    To somewhat answer your original question-
    I do 6 settings over the course of a year: Advent, Christmas, OT1, Lent, Easter, OT2

    I've thought about switching halfway through the second Ordinary Time, but it seems arbitrary- which is one of my least favorite liturgical feelings.
    This means, though, that you need a seriously hardy setting that won't get boring for such a long stretch of time.
    My (Episcopal) parish seems to really like the Deutche Messe adaptation in the 1982, so we use that.

    Back to chant...
    It is by no means required or mandated, but the Vatican has a list of suggested chant settings for particular seasons:
    http://antoinedanielmass.org/kyriale/vaticannorms.pdf
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks, Adam! (I happened to also provide that link in my original post above.)

    Which leads me to yet another question… actually, two more (and my apologies if my incessant queries are getting annoying here)…

    * For that "Vatican norms" letter -- I know it's up on the Watershed site, and I recall when it was first shared either over at the NLM or at the Café. It's also posted in several other places on the web… but does anyone know if it can be found on an official Vatican site? (I looked and looked, but to no avail.)

    * Regarding Agnus Dei ad lib. #2 -- I see it's in the Kyriale Simplex, and it's also in my Gregorian Missal (which means it's also in the Graduale Romanum). I don't see a little "century" indication, though, on the upper-right hand corner of the notation. Does this indicate what Dr. Mahrt and others have called a "neo-Gregorian" (i.e., inauthentic) composition?

    Thanks, all.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    Mark M. - Agnus Dei ad lib #2 is a 19th century composition by Dom Joseph Pothier. See this thread.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    If I were working in a perfect world - and that is not the real situation - I'd change almost every week.

    In example:
    Advent I - Mass XVII
    Advent II - polyphonic Mass
    Advent III - Mass XVIII
    Advent IV - Mass XVII
    Christmas - orchestral Mass
    Holy Family - Mass XV
    January 1 - Mass IX
    Epiphany - polyphonic Mass (or repeat Christmas orchestral Mass)
    Baptism of the Lord - Mass VIII
    Ordinary Time - Masses XI, II, VI, alternating with simpler polyphonic Masses
    Lent I - Mass XVII
    Lent II - Mass XVIII
    Lent III - polyphonic Mass
    Lent IV - more elaborate polyphonic Mass
    Lent V - Mass XVII
    Lent VI - Mass XVIII
    Palm Sunday - polyphonic Mass
    Holy Thursday - polyphonic Mass
    Easter Vigil - orchestral Mass
    Easter Day - orchestral Mass
    Easter II - Mass I
    Easter III - Mass VIII
    Easter IV - repeat Easter orchestral Mass
    Easter V - Mass I
    Easter VI - polyphonic Mass
    Ascension - polyphonic Mass
    Pentecost - orchestral Mass
    Trinity Sunday - Mass VIII
    Corpus et Sanguis Christi - polyphonic or orchestral Mass
    Ordinary Time (returns) - Masses XI, III, IV, V, XIII and XIV, alternating with polyphonic Masses (in the perfect world, you can still pull together SATB during the Summer).

    The above would keep the faithful alert to the ordinary of the Mass and not have them fall into the Mass of Creation Blues. Sometimes when we do the same Mass over and over again, regardless of how good a Mass is (many TLMs are guilty of this by beating VIII into the ground), the congregation just becomes numb to it. They don't stop to think about what they're singing, what the words mean and what the notes mean. I believe a more frequent rotation of Masses will lead to a re-invigoration of the Ordinary of the Mass and keep us - and the congregation - from getting into a habit of just going through the motions.
    Thanked by 1Joseph Mendes
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    Sadly, it's not a perfect world, although I wish it were. But you are right that (much) more frequent changes in the ordinary of the Mass is highly desirable. For parishes mired in the same ol' same ol' - week in and week out (only rarely changing except for special celebrations or seasons) - an incremental approach might (unfortunately) be necessary, both in terms of frequency of change and in terms of the variety of ordinaries (especially when only one or two have been used in the past). But I would make the transition as swift as possible.
  • At my Anglo-Catholic job, we change the Ordinary as Adam describes above, except that we do three different Ordinaries during OT2 (Pentecost season to the Anglicans). The congregation gets restless if we do only one for that long!--although this year may be different, as for the first time in about three years we are singing the Merbecke First Communion Service (plainsong) and people throng me afterwards to say that they have missed it and really appreciate it in the summer when we only have 2-4 women in the loft. We also do either an orchestral mass or a polyphonic mass at Christmas and an orchestral mass (smallish, like a Mozart Missa Brevis, although we did the Rheinberger Mass in C two years ago!) at Easter. The other comment I've been getting is that people miss the beautiful Oldroyd setting for either Christmas or Easter--under the previous rector (14 years ago) they did one polyphonic mass on either Christmas or Easter and the Oldroyd on the other; I tried that several years ago and the present rector said he wanted a 'real' polyphonic mass. So this year we sang it on Pentecost, since the congregation 'had plenty else to do'. And the congregation chants the Our Father every week, and the Creed never.

    I absolutely agree with matthewj's comments on changing the Ordinary more often and why!
  • Chuck's observation is very salient. Lamentable this world may be, and dove-tailing from another thread, we ought not to forget that Pius X's revolution eventually insisted the ordinary ought to be owned by the faithful (all things being equal, arggghhh.) MS puts that into reality from the Pater Noster on down the line.
    And one of the ironic points that both wings of liturgipraxis agree upon is the "by memory" thing. Well, in MJM's perfect world we'd all have to have photographic recall and pretty high IQ's. Again, remembering many talks/essays by Mahrt, this memory process takes decades. And, of course, the propers were essentially carried forth by rote learning and memory by children in monasteries by the systematic calendaring and repetition of those scriptural excerpts over centuries' time.
    The ironic part: the ex-communicant priest Mathew Fox trumpeted the "lose the hymnal, reduce the repertoire" mantra at NPM two decades ago. And that's been resurrected in some threads over at the PTB recently as well.
    The path of least resistance has commanded us to sing "Happy Birthday" for someone every darn day to the same darn melody. It doesn't lessen the essence of joy we should feel for the presence of the birthday boy/girl.
  • Now, more to the point.
    Last night I held the "New Mass Setting" extravaganza for our music leadership at our four parish cluster.
    This is the first time I've been afforded the responsibility for "mandating" the use of specific Mass settings in order to re-align our churches towards coherence and a semblance of "universality." Roughly, we will rotate the new settings based upon acquisition by the congregations over a period of at least four to six months, with a specific mandate to use the ICEL chant setting (at least) once per month in alternation with the assigned settings. Those settings are specific to the musical support available, ie. cantored Masses use either the Proulx "Simplex" or the Bolduc "St. Ann" or Haas "New World," while the choral Mass will use (likely) the Nickel "St. Therese," Ostrowski "Sherwin" or the Bancks.
    At this juncture, I can't foresee a "seasonal" approach working, nor a benefit to letting the leaders "do their own thing."
    We have an opportunity to shift some paradigms, so I believe that we all should do so with great attention to method and motive.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Even if you're not using Gregorian Ordinaries, I think the wisdom of the Vatican's seasonal/feast-day approach to Ordinary settings is an excellent example to follow.
    It also aligns a traditionalist practice with a contemporary/progressive "liturgical season mood setting" conception.
  • Yes, certainly AW, but I haven't encountered a "new" text setting that, motive-wise, hearkens unto a particular season.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    We will have three mass settings, instead of the current 4 settings, for a one year period that begins with Advent. After the year is up, we can use what we like. I normally change seasonally. Regardless of other settings we may choose at the end of the prescribed year, the English chant ordinary from the missal, and the Latin ordinary will stay with us.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Your lives are so ......complicated!

    We're EF, so we rotate through Masses I, IV, VIII, IX, and XI and Credos I, III, and IV--except in Advent & Lent, when we use Mass XVII/XVIII.

    See? A whole year's worth of programming in only 1.5 lines!
  • Gloating is unbecoming, Dad! ;-)
    But our "Garage Schola", The Gregorian Schola of St. Francis (all 3rd Order guys) were there in force, so they were quite taken by the ICEL Gloria (XI) and JMO's "Sherwin." So, there too!
  • Charles in CenCA--"Garage Schola", Oh, my... I suppose mine should be the Bonus Room Schola aka the Foyer Schola, as we started meeting in the bonus room over the garage and then doing 'final takes' on the balcony, then when we started doing some accompanied pieces we moved to the guest room/music studio (it's where the Clavinova lives, or rather, lived), and then when we swelled to 13 singers+2 violins for ordination/First Mass/Missa Solemnis weekend in June, my husband said, "Let's just set you up in the foyer so you have enough room and N... and D... don't have to climb the stairs" (foyer is open plan with our dining and living rooms, with balcony across) so that's where we are now. My only wish, when we built this house five years ago, was for a two-story living/dining room/foyer combination so my students could do recitals here, or I could someday start a schola...two years later, voila!
  • Mix it all up a bit.

    The are 4x Kyrie which I have identified and intend to teach to my schola

    Kyrie XI (Orbis Factor) is a little elaborate but quite manageable.
    Kyrie XII is simple, and really seems to be a forgotten gem of chant.
    Kyrie XVI is the easiest one used in both Missa Primitiva and Missa Jubilate Deo
    Kyrie XVIII is similar and not hard to sing at all.

    I would teach the following 3x Glorias

    Gloria VIII (De Angelis) is a beautiful one and easy to learn.
    Gloria XV - not as jubilant as Gloria VIII
    ICEL Chant Mass for the Assembly (English version of Gloria XV)

    Perhaps these two are best contrasted by using Gloria XV (or the ICEL version) on Ordinary Sundays and Gloria VIII on Feasts or Special occasions.

    Sanctus XI (Orbis Factor), again is a little elaborate but still manageable.
    Sanctus XVIII is the staple used by all, and should be used regularly.

    Agnus Dei Ad Libitum II - I would alternate this with XVIII during the year.
    Agnus Dei XVIII is another staple piece, I would stick with this during Lent and Advent.

    And of course, there are good settings in Latin and English for congregational singing so don't be afraid to use these as well.

    Just to give you an idea of what I would do, here is my own vision for the Kyrie:

    Advent and Lent are the penitential/preparatory seasons, so stick to the simpler ones during these times, and focus more on chant masses. I would use Kyrie XVI and XVIII during these seasons and Kyrie XII on Laetare and Gaudete Sundays to indicate the softening of the disciplines, much in the same way that Rose is a softening of Purple vestments. I would then use Kyrie XII more often during Eastertide and Christmastide. I would then use all four of the above throughout Ordinary time.

    This is assuming that I only use the Chant Kyrie. I would in fact make use of harmonised or polyphonic Kyries as well throughout the year, as well as different versions from various mass settings. Mass St Boniface and Mass in Mi are two which immediately spring to mind.
    Thanked by 1Mark M.