Wedding gift dilemma
  • daniel
    Posts: 75
    I am a full-time parish musician, expected to work a 40 hour week. I am not paid extra for weddings or funerals as they are considered part of my 40 hour work week, which seems just as I seldom go over 40 hours (except holidays, etc.). My salary isn't large, but that's another story. Anyway, tomorrow one of our choir members is being married. I am providing the music along with the choir members. We are all going to the reception, too. Here's my question (finally): how much should I give as a wedding gift, given that I am not paid extra for wedding? I feel I must give something, even though the reception will not be in a very fancy place. Is $25 ok? No time to go shopping for a candy dish or anything of that sort.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    1) I think $25 is fine.

    2) You should definitely be paid extra for both weddings and funerals. This money should come from the couple (wedding) or the family of the deceased (funeral). In my opinion, it is definitely NOT just for you to be given no extra compensation for these events. Perhaps others could chime in here, but as far as I can tell, it is 99% standard for a church musician (even a full-time one, like you and I are) to be paid extra for weddings and funerals. It should be an unusual situation for you not to get paid for these, and it should always be due to the fact that the family is borderline destitute and sincerely cannot afford to pay for a musician.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,413
    Until now, I have never heard of or experienced anyone anywhere in any 'denomination' not being paid by bridal party or funeral family for weddings and funerals. You may very well be the only one on the planet - and should set about rectifying your situation, which is grossly unfair and exploitative.
    As to what to spend on a wedding gift?
    This should be whatever you feel is appropriate to this relationship.
    You might consider that your professional services are gift enough.

    Since you say that your salary 'isn't large' and you are working a '40-hour week', and doing weddings and funerals to boot, it sounds like you are doing far more than full-time work for a not-full-time salary.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    To chime in with the above cries of unjust non-payment for services, I suggest you look at your diocesan guildelines. Many of them have standard minimums that organists must be paid for funerals and weddings.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    There are parishes that pay salary and then pocket all funeral and wedding fees. This sounds like one of them.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,413
    If it wasn't clear enough above, you are being had, exploited -- which is a moral debit for your pastor, brides & grooms, and funeral families.
    Is it feasable for you to contemplate a better position in another church, failing gaining appropriate fair play where you are???
    Nobody Anywhere does what is required of you.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    There are people who would gladly take a regular salary check that they can count on rather than counting upon people dying and getting married to provide the money for their basic living expenses. It's not a bad situation, since the church, instead, has to come up with the money during times when people are not dying and marrying.

    With people choosing not to have a church funeral mass and people choosing not to get married, this has affected the income of people who rely on such things.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    There are no absolutes in this worldly realm and economy.
    Who among us has never provided services gratis for a wedding or funeral under special circumstances, irrespective of whether the "clients" were capable of paying a stipend or not?
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    A wise old voice teacher at my University used to say:

    "My dear, you do things for only three reasons: money, sex, or political favor."


    To that I would add "religious duty," but that might belong under political favor.

    You should most certainly be paid stipends for weddings and funerals. Their frequency is irrelevant. You are most definitely being exploited. The parish where I work is 30 miles from my house and 37 miles from my "day job." I am not generally expected to do funerals. When I do them, the family pay me, or I receive a stipend from the church. If the people don't pay me, the church makes up the difference. I have only taken a couple over the last few years.

    On the other hand (as Tevye might say), you might need to continue in your current position for nos. 1 and 3, and if you're married, not having no. 1 will result in significant losses at home in nos. 2 and 3. So you are stuck until you get a new pastor or a new position. My sympathies.

    Oh, and it's generous of you to bring a gift, even if it's only $25, when you have already donated your time and services for the wedding. I don't donate my services except in exceedingly rare circumstances -- roughly as often as the mortgage company donates a month's interest.
  • daniel
    Posts: 75
    Years ago I attended a workshop in this diocese. At the workshop, the person in charge of Personnel said that any church musician who is full-time and salaried should not collect extra fees for weddings and funerals. It's part of his job. Think about it. Are you spending more than 40 hours a week to do weddings and funerals in your parish, or are they included within those 40 hours? Are all of them so complicated that it requires hours of preparation time and extra rehearsals? Is it just to demand extra money for that which is part of your job? Just some questions for consideration. In this diocese, a diocesan priest is salaried and receives the same salary no matter how many Masses he celebrates in his parish. From what I'm told, the fee the families pay to the church go to parish funds and not to the priest. The priest collects an extra stipend when he celebrates Mass elsewhere, just like musicians (justly) accept a fee when they provide music elsewhere.
    Regarding the wedding I originally wrote about, I did give $25 at the reception. And, after the Mass, much to my delight, the couple handed me an envelope with $100. See? God will not be outdone in generosity.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Just commenting on the situation here, not the meat of the original post.

    In my wife's case, she was offered a full-time job at salary X, not including weddings and funerals, which were to be paid as stipends. Not liking the original salary offer and not really knowing how many people died each year, she countered with salary Y, which would include funerals but not weddings. Lo and behold, she makes much more in salary than she would have made in funeral stipends, and she makes a killing in weddings (one in her cluster of parishes has a beautiful marble interior). Maybe we can see this issue as having some give and take. "Total compensation package," as it were.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    To respond to Daniel:

    I've thought plenty about it, and the stipends that I receive for funerals and weddings help make my salary more in line with NPM/AGO recommendations. Perhaps if your salary is on the high end of the NPM/AGO scale for which your credentials and responsibilities qualify you, it may seem right for you to forgo the funeral and wedding stipends. For me, my salary is not leaving me impoverished by any means, and I am grateful for what I have, but it is not even on the bottom end of the NPM/AGO scale for which I qualify.

    Adding to that, I don't know what diocese you're from or who your director of personnel is, but I've worked in 3 dioceses and I have always, always, ALWAYS been paid extra for weddings and funerals. I would not accept a position that barred me from making extra money for these extra duties unless the base compensation was much more generous than what I make now. At least in my area of the country, if you are a musician (full-time or not) who does not accept extra compensation for weddings and funerals, you are certainly a member of a tiny minority.

    I'm not trying to be combative; I just want to see that money go into your wallet, as I believe you are currently earning it, but not receiving it.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Daniel makes an interesting point.
    I suppose it all comes down to-- as long as the expectations and time commitment and salary are completely clear to the organist prior to the acceptance of a job (and whoever pays his paycheck,) then I suppose it doesn't really matter HOW the organist gets paid, unless the situation occurs where the weddings/funerals change in amount, which would of course affect the time commitment, which should have a pre-determined solution already in place.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    I'm not sure why musicians should get paid and composers should not. Any thoughts?
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Composers most definitely should get paid. The problem is one of supply and demand. The unfortunate result of the climate that creates, however, is one where talented composers have to have "day jobs" to subsidize their Muses. Another unfortunately result is that sometimes the composers who are actually getting paid for their work aren't the best ones, but only the most commercially viable.

    There are commissions out there for composers, but they are a lot thinner on the ground than organist positions.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Is it useful to make a distinction between musicians and composers? As in, what do you call the drummer? The guy who hangs out with the musicians?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Who is suggesting that composers should not get paid?

    The work that they do is just as worthy of compensation as the work that organists/choirmasters do.

    That said, completely agreeing with JDE, just about every church of reasonable size pays an organist or choir director; very few pay a composer. The demand is just not nearly as high for composers as it is for organists. That's why many of them (reasonably) resort to giving their music away or utilizing the "freemium" model to get their music out there and encourage others to utilize it.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    The situation for aspiring composers getting paid is about like that for aspiring novelists or poets.

    Personally, I recognized already in high school that the chances of making a real living as a musician, except possibly as a school music teacher (and I questioned the reality of such a living), was next to nil. Being talented enough in another area made it possible for me to pursue another career in academia. This, for the most part, afforded me the opportunity to keep and even cultivate my musical interests, at least the performance aspects, although lack of time for necessary daily practice resulted in my giving up oboe playing for a long time.

    So I sang, composed a little, sang, led a small nameless ensemble (as singer and oboist) for a while, sang, studied conducting, sang, served as a choir director/organist (unpaid, of course, because it was at a university Catholic parish church that catered to guitars, bongos, etc.), sang, composed a little, sang, studied conducting, sang, composed a little, and eventually sang with a fantastic early music group (taking voice lessons in early music performance and studying early choral music). Oh, and I even played a little bass sackbut.

    Early retirement made it possible for me to delve more deeply into music - studying early choral music, composing more, editing some early music, discovering CPDL and contributing editions there. Moving to the Twin Cities area ended ten seasons for the early music group I had sung and recorded three CDs with, but it has opened up new choral music possibilities that are still unfolding in this choral mecca. Meanwhile, I became quite involved with CPDL when it was ported to ChoralWiki in late 2005 and its subsequent reorganization beginning in summer 2008 resulting it becoming a nonprofit by 2010. I've been asked to form an early music vocal ensemble here and to start up a group for singing Compline (not coincidentally I've delved into composing some Compline appropriate works). My composing activities have seen an increase of late, fallow times usually giving way to editing early music, and it is gratifying to learn that quite a few of my works are actually being sung out in the real world.

    I've never been paid even a penny as a composer or as a choir director/organist. I've been a paid soloist on occasion (usually for funerals), the most being for a performance of Handel's Solomon (as the bass aria soloist and understudy to the Solomon role) but the cost of renting a penguin outfit for the gig ate up more than half of the stipend!

    I figure that my work on behalf of CPDL and as a board member at the local arts center are public service. It would be the same for my musical activities (unpaid as they have been), especially composing, but there is a deeper, spiritual reward that cannot be cast in monetary or public service terms.

    So, I'm happy ... rather cramped financially, for sure, but I have a wonderful wife, eight children, ten grandchildren, a couple of affectionate long-haired mini-dachshunds ... and (of course) faith and music. How could I not be happy!

    Okay ... maybe I could be happier if ...
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