Help wanted: Slavonic to Latin
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    With all the Latinists in the CMAA, could someone spare a few minutes to render a Slavonic text into Latin? The short version is, we are singing the Rachmaninoff "Bogoroditse Devo" from the All-Night Vigil, Op. 37, No. 6. The standard Ave Maria text is often cobbled onto it, but the text is actually more like a combo of that and a Regina Coeli.

    Transliterated Slavonic and English text below.

    Slavonic:
    Bogoroditse Devo, raduisya:
    Blagodatnaya Mariye, Gospod' s'toboyu.
    Blagoslovenna Ty v zhenakh,
    i blagosloven Plod Xreva Tvoyevo,
    Yako Spasa rodila yesi dush nashikh.

    English:
    Bearer of God, Maiden, rejoice:
    Blessed Mary, the Lord is with you.
    Blessed are you among women,
    and blessed is the Fruit of your womb,
    for you have borne the Savior of our souls.

    So far I have this:
    Mater Dei Virgo, Gaude (or maybe laetare);
    Benedicta Maria (maybe this should be vocative? I only know the Russian cases, and that isn't one of them) , Dominus tecum;
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus Fructus Ventris Tui;
    Quia portasti Salvatorem anim[?] nost[???]

    I don't think "portare" - to carry - conveys the same depth of meaning as "rodila," which means "gave birth to." In Slavonic, unlike in English, no trailing preposition is required because it takes accusative case.

    Alas, this is what happens when you grow up non-Catholic and are too lazy to study Latin on your own! Oh, the indignity. So I am thankful for any help any more scholarly person here might offer. The piece is so gorgeous and reverent that it would be a shame to exclude it because the Latin text is incomplete.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Here's one version:

    Laetare, Virgo Deipara,
    Beata Maria, Dominus tecum.
    Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
    et benedictus Fructus ventris tui,
    quia portasti nostrarum animarum salvatorem.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I'm just looking at the English, not the Slavonic, but what you have in the Latin is mostly correct as a translation of the English. However:

    1. Yes, the first-declension vocative looks just like the nominative, so "Benedicta Maria" is correct in that sense, but "Benedicta" rings oddly and I think "Beata Maria" would be a more customary appellation.

    2. Instead of "portasti" you probably want "genuisti," from the verb gigno, "bear, beget, bring forth."

    3. "Of our souls" would be "animarum nostrarum," the feminine genitive plural. I might favor an order to the last line more like "Quia Salvatorem genuisti animarum nostrarum."
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Great, chonak!

    MarkThompson is correct about using "gigno" instead of "porto"; the Latin for the original Greek "Theotokos" is "Dei Genetrix".

    BTW, "portasti" is a contraction that is often seen in the 2nd person singular perfect for "portavisti", which you could use if it works better metrically.
  • vincentuher
    Posts: 134
    I recall singing a Latin text to this a long time ago, something like...

    Genetrix Dei, Virgo, laetare:
    Gratia plena, Maria, Dominus tecum.

    and that text used 'genuisti' refering back to Genetrix but unfortuntately I can't recall the translator's exact art for the entire prayer.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I wouldn't give up "porto" altogether, as we have some uses of it to rely on: "quia quem meruisti portare" in the Regina coeli, at least. And "Beatus venter qui te portavit" (Lk. 11).

    "Deipara" is another Latin equivalent for "Theotokos", used by the Church Fathers and also by some Orthodox writers.
  • vincentuher
    Posts: 134
    chonak, your 'Laetare, Virgo Deipara' is most orthodox and Orthodox not to mention lovely as an expression of prayer.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Thank you all! Chonak, thanks especially for the term Deipara, which is new to me.

    When I finish the work, I will post it to this thread for everyone's use.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Yes, I do like Deipara. W/r/t porto vs. gigno, both words can certainly be applied to the Virgin, but it somewhat depends on whether you care to emphasize the fact that she "bore" the Savior in the sense of carrying him inside her womb (Mary-as-tabernacle) or in the sense of bringing him forth and giving birth to him. Since according to JDE "rodila" is closer to the latter, "genuit" seemed more apt to me.
  • vincentuher
    Posts: 134
    JDE, one thing you may wish to bear in mind is that 'Blagodatnaya Mariye' is the later Slavonic translation for the Greek original of this text where the exact words are κεχαριτωμένη Μαρία that is 'full of grace Maria'.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    By the way, JDE, are you going to use the English and Latin translations for program notes, or are you thinking of adapting them to the melody? You can certainly rearrange the Latin word order in various places, change the vocabulary using the ideas from Mark or me, or substitute "Gaude" for "Laetare" as seems best.

    As it happens, I just sang the Tchaikovsky All-Night Vigil a few days ago (with 60 other singers), so I look forward to hearing your recording.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    I'm planning to fit the Latin text to the melody, so I have already had to change the beginning to "Virgo Deipara, Lætare." Is that okay?

    We are doing this with seven singers. I had to have so many because i am not fond of octave-unison chant. I am not a purist about the anachronism - I just find it difficult to tune the octaves. I was nervous about the women's schola, but one of the girls has loads of experience with Anglican chant and is a very strong reader, so I feel better about it now.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Totally okay!

    And the word order of the last line is flexible: the last four words can be in any order you like.

    quia portasti nostrarum animarum salvatorem.
    quia salvatorem portasti nostrarum animarum .
    quia nostrarum salvatorem animarum portasti.
    quia animarum nostrarum portasti salvatorem.
    etc.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Isn't this text a movement in Rachmaninoff's Vespers? If so, translations should be widely available.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    There's a text "Virgo Dei Genitrix" (set by Byrd, among others) which is probably what was coming to mind to folks above. (It's about "He Whom all the world could not contain was contained in your womb.")
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    To answer the other part of chonak's question, we will sing it in Latin (if I can make that work) or Slavonic and put English and Spanish translations in the program. It's an international affair, you see, and we are doing Latin propers and Ordinary so that everyone is equally [un]comfortable. I am really trying to keep all the music in Latin on general principle, but I don't think they would really mind if we sang it in Slavonic.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Would it be acceptable to use Spem instead of Salvatorem? "Spas" (acc. Spasa) in Slavonic means salvation, but sometimes that word is used interchangeably with Savior. It's kind of like "Heil" in German, which becomes Heiland (Salvation/Savior). We don't use "our Hail" in English any more - darn those Normans.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Instead of substituting "spem" (hope), I wondered if one might use "salutem" (accusative of "salus") -- meaning "salvation" rather than "savior", to break up the string of four-syllable words. I think that's an option.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Thank you! What a difference studying the language makes!

    I am so thankful for all my colleagues on this forum. I hope I can be a resource when I am needed. I'm reasonably competent as a Finale engraver if someone needs help! But preferably AFTER the Colloquium. ;-)
  • vincentuher
    Posts: 134
    Among the Byzantine Catholic churches, the Russian Eastern Catholic rite still uses Church Slavonic as its official language for worship (at least in Mother Russia). If your choir can sing it in the original Slavonic, JDE, you are very blest!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Vincent, we will have six hired-gun soloists and myself. Two are Anglican, one is Lutheran, one Presbyterian, and the other two are Babdists, I think. The Anglicans have a major advantage because they sing in the choir of a "high-church" congregation, but the others are coming along.

    I'm planning to video the whole thing and make a little documentary to show future brides. And also to show the finance people what you can accomplish with choral scholars (euphemism for hired soloists). Mrs. JDE and her BFF will both woman the video cameras, and I will record the sound in a couple of places so as to piece it all together.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    To finish answering the question, no, my choir as such would have a hard time with the Slavonic. Choral Scholars, on the other hand, rock! (Or should I say they 'Rach?')
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Or even "Pax" (inside joke for those knowing Cyrillic)!!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    gregp - that's a good one!

    [CORRECTED VERSION POSTED BELOW]

    Feel free to use as you wish, as long as you give credit to Chonak for the Latin.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Chonak caught an important error: a missing verb. This probably stems from my German study. Since everyone knows that in German the verb goes at the end, it appears I just ran out of notes before I got to it.
    Rachmaninoff Bogoroditse Devo Latin.pdf
    106K
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