Singing Agnus Dei (polyphonic)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    When an Agnus Dei is repetitive within a single iteration, is it still sung in a threefold manner?
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    I'm of the mind that if the Agnus Dei has the words "Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis, dona nobis pacem" in it then you're "good to go." In a Gregorian setting, I'd opt for a three-fold repetition. In a polyphonic setting, especially in an OF Mass, I'd recommend the shortest option--especially if the congregation isn't accustomed to polyphonic settings of the Ordinary.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    In every EF mass I've been in, yes. Generally (but not always), they've not repeated the polyphony for the 2nd Agnus...miserere, but replaced it with chant. And many polyphonic Agnuses have a 2nd setting with an additional voice for the Dona. For those that don't, it's easy enough to sub in "dona nobis pacem" for "miserere nobis"

    I haven't heard all that many polyphonic Agnus in OF. PaixGioiaAmor here uses something simple (e.g., Haller) and repeats it 3 times. At the Cleveland Cathedral, they do a weird thing involving cantor and people doing one of the iterations of "miserere".
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Ok, so we're singing, in an EF, Lassus' Missa Octavi Toni.

    This is what we've done with the Kyrie in the OF:
    -chant Kyrie, chant Kyrie, polyphony Kyrie
    -chant Christe, chant Christe, polyphony Kyrie
    -chant Kyrie, chant Kyrie (final form), polyphony Kyrie

    In the EF, should we do this? Or just the polyphony? Or...? Also, what are the pros and cons of using the final form of the Kyrie in the 8th rather than 9th position?

    For the Agnus Dei, in this Mass setting the miserere nobis and dona nobis pacem are on two separate "verses" if you will. Mark, I think you're suggesting we could just sing those two without a repeat of "verse" 1. Jeffrey, I think you're saying we could sing v.1, then a chant v. 1, then v.2, for the donna nobis pacem.

    Thanks for your responses, I could really use plenty of advice (and/or links) regarding this.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    That's a lot of Kyrie. You can do that with a Kyrie of Byrdian brevity. In every EF mass with polyphony that I've experienced, the polyphony has been done straight through. I read somewhere ( and I can't remember where) that in polyphony you don't count the iterations of Kyrie, as there are generally at least 3. One would think such a rule would also apply to tha Agnus. I'm just reporting what I've experienced. And as for the Agnus, what I've experienced is exactly what you said (i.e., you understood me.)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Jeffrey, what chant Mass would you use with this polyphony Mass? We've used the Jubilate Deo with the Kyrie.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    I wanted to take a look at this, but Grove doesn't list a Lassus mass under that title (so I can find it in the Collected Works). Fortunately, the title answers your question: "octavi toni". You're going to want to use a Gregorian mass movement in whatever mode the polyphony is in. The chant mode is easy enough; look in the Liber. The polyphony mode is trickier as they don't always say "octavi toni" But if you have final cadences on d,e,f,or g, you can assume Modes 1/2, 3/4, 5/6. and 7/8 respectively. Or, if that doesn't work, use a chant that begins on the same pitch as the ending or restart of the polyphony.

    Sometimes, if you have transposed polyphony, this isn't so straightforward. I did an edition of Tallis a 4 up a 5th for SATB (at cpdl). Now, the Credo (of this and many other English masses) is missing a big bleeding chunk of text, and That Will Not Do, so I decided to fill in with chant. I had the Sarum chant credo (= Credo I; they only used one), but it would sound horrible if sung at the transposed pitch. Fortunately, the section began and ended with the proper note, and the 5th relationship was close enough, so yes, it's in the "wrong" mode (and has f naturals instead of the F# of the transposed mode), but it sounds just fine to me.

    So assuming Mode 8 and/or a G final, you could use Kyrie I, V, Vii Xii, XIV, and Agnus VI, VII, XIV. Which I would use would depend on how close I wanted to come to liturgical propriety for the chant (so I'd use Lux et origo now.) Let's say you just have a couple of Gregorian Kyries on tap, and want to use one, even if it's not Mode 8. You'll use the one that will cause the least trouble, i,e., if transposed to the pitch of the final or dominant of the polyphony, it is neither too high nor too low, and doesn't have many notes not in the scale of the polyphony.

    I hope this didn't get too terribly technical.
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