Use of flat in chant notation
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    While singing the mode I offertory for the 5th Sunday of Easter, Jubilate Deo, I was surprised that there is a si-flat notated for the first syllable of "terra" the first time it is sung, but not the second time, even though the melody is identical. I thought maybe this was a misprint in the Gregorian Missal, but it's the same in my pre-Vatican II Graduale. Just for fun, I checked the transcription in the American Gradual, which leaves out the flats all together, even in the incipit. Then looking at the Triplex, I realize that the manuscripts do not do much to determine absolute pitch. Can anyone, perhaps someone who knows how the flats got there in the first place, shed some light on their application in general and specifically to this example?
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    Johner in Chants of the Vatican Gradual ( http://www.musicasacra.com/pdf/chants_johner.pdf ) refers to the sharpened note in the second "terra" as "energetic" and remarks that the development is unusual. I think that the overall effect is striking, and I'm sure we could have an interesting discussion speculating on what the chant composer was trying to do here!
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Weren't those AMAZING chants this weekend? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this weekend was the only outline of a descending first-inversion major triad I've seen in the repertoire. Whoa!

    I recall reading something to the effect that Fr. Anthony Ruff has some insights on this topic, claiming that an argument could be made for mi-flat and fa-sharp to appear in future Vatican editions, based on paleographic evidence. Anyone either heard him speak or read his work?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    He mentions this in passing in an article for Sacred Music, summer 2008.

    Somehow, with all the debate and difficulty, i have doubts that we will ever seen in our lifetimes a new Vat edition. but who knows. There's probably more in his new book, which is something like 675 pages. I feel oddly ignorant for not having ready it. It is very $$$$
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I haven't read it, but it seems mi-flat and fa-sharp would only be useful in transposition, that is putting "si" in another position. Let's not forget that our modern flat and natural signs come from the two types of b: the molle ("soft") or rounded b (flat) and the durum ("hard") or square-shaped b (natural). In Guidonian theory, for melodies extending beyond the first hexachord (say, beginning on G in which B would be mi), one would have to switch to another hexachord, such as the identical-sounding hexachord beginning on C. The same pattern could be found beginning on F, but this would require the use of the B flat (in which case the B would be fa). Since in these cases the mi and the fa are both B's, they could still be either natural or flat without breaking the "one flat" rule. Am I way off here? I just gave a lecture about scales and modes this week, but we didn't get too much into medieval theory.
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    The first manuscript giving flat-indications, i was told, is the Verdun one. I had a look for "Jubilate...": flat ad the beginning, but on both terrae, c (ut/do) instead of b (flat or not). German dialect would have said Peter Wagner. About the same thing in Montpellier. It sounds quite well with the little terzae la-do...
  • awruff
    Posts: 94
    Hello all,

    To clarify, we are not talking just about transposition, but about the existence of "forbidden" accidentals outside of the 8-mode system. Examples: F# in Mode I, final on D, or Eb in Mode VI, final on F. It is well-established that the chant propers originally had such pitches in the 8th century. They fell victim to systemization in the 9th century, beginning in some places and then slowly spreading to others. But comparison of the earliest lineless and lined notation (e.g. Albi, Benevento, etc.), scholars can reconstruct the original pitches.

    Reconstructed melodies of the propers by German-language scholars is available here: http://www.gregor-und-taube.de/html/materialien.htm#I.1. It is rather common throughout Europe (though not at Solesmes) to sing corrected melodies, and you'll hear this on plenty of recent recordings.

    I tend to agree with Jeffrey Tucker that we may not see the officially approved corrected version in our lifetime. There is a lot to do yet in working through the Graduale, and then Church officials will have importance decision to make in doubtful cases. But I still hope and pray that it will come out eventually, and I think it will some day (however distant) since it is a charge of the Second Vatican Council.

    In every case that I've encountered without exception, the corrected (original) version is spiritually richer and does more to bring out the theology and liturgical meaning of the text. Of course many of the corrections don't involve forbidden accidentals, but just getting the right diatonic notes. Sometimes (not always) the corrected version is a bit more difficult.

    A final caution to all: be wary of trying to interpret the meaning of the chant or the intention of the composer if you're working from the uncorrectecd melodies in our Graduale. Keep in mind, this may well not be at all what was composed or sung back in the Carolingian era.

    Best wishes to all,

    Fr. Anthony
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    The Jubilate corrected by Gregor une Taube does not seem realy corrected.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I recently heard that Solesmes doesn't have anyone working in on reconstructing chant melodies, and that the decision has been made to do no more recordings. So is that really the case that Solesmes has no institutional priority to issue a new Graduale? If so, it seems that Pothier's and Mocquereau's push to release the early edition more quickly than either of them wanted will prevail for a very long time.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    To respond to incantu concerning why "terra" in the offertory Jubilate Deo has a B-flat on the first occurrence and a B-natural on the second: in the first occurrence, the melody proceeds directly to a cadence on a; the B-flat leads nicely down to a; in the second occurrence, the melody proceeds upwards to reiterated c, and the B-natural leads nicely to that point. This is a part of the larger significance of this melody. This offertory is unusual for an offertory in that it repeats its first line of text literally; (there are only four or five offertories that do that). But the melody for this repeat makes it to be much more than a repeat. The first statement, an injunction to "Sing joyfully to God, all the earth," is answered by the second, which responds to the injunction by singing joyfully to God, i.e., by singing one of the most extensive jubiluses in the whole repertory of offertories. That turn upward to the C prepares for that most joyful jubilus. The other most extensive jubilus is in a similar position in the Offertory Jubilate Deo omnis terra, where it is used to an identical position, leading to another splendid melisma.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Correction: in my previous comment, I said that "That turn upward to the C prepares for that most joyful jubilus; I should have said follows that jubilus, and leads to two other somewhat shorter melismas.
  • Jevoro
    Posts: 108
    The reasons you give for flat and not-flat in "Jubilate Deo omnes..." are surely exactly the reasons Dom Potier had to put and not to put them where they are in the vaticane. I think that's respectable. But you should admit that it is quite post-romatic and not so terribly "archeological". I love and venerate the vaticane. But sometimes i have a look into some reproductions of manuscripts. That's not vorbidden. "More critical editions" orders Vatican II. It's a long way.
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