Sung Vespers after Mass (TLM)
  • TorquemadaTorquemada
    Posts: 20
    Hello, folks.

    My TLM parish's schola (of which I am a proud member) is increasing in its conversancy of liturgical chant as the many Sundays and solemnities drift by. Deo Gratias. Myself and a few others have subtly, but persistently, campaigned for the introduction of Sung Sunday Vespers in the regular liturgical life of our parish. However, a number of difficulties have arisen. Primarily the fact that many of the parishioners are commuters (many even having to cross the Tex/Mex border) and the last Mass of the day begins at 10:00AM. As much as I would love to have Vespers at sundown, I know that would mean forcing a sizable portion of the faithful to either make two grueling kiddo-hauling commutes in a single day or ... sticking around the parish for about 7 hours until Vespers rolls around.

    So the questions that arose are: (1) Is there any rubrical interdiction forbidding the chanting of Sung Vespers (or Solemn Vespers, if we play our cards right) immediately following Mass, which in our case would be at about Noon? If this is an intolerable liturgical abomination then: (2) when the particular Sunday or solemnity lacks a First Vespers, is it possible (rubrically) to anticipate and chant the normative (2nd) Sunday Vespers on the preceding Saturday evening?

    Thanks for the help!

    In Corde Regis Christi,
    JS
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,190
    It does seem out of place to have Vespers at noon, and some dioceses have a guideline about the proper time for it. In mine (Boston), it's anytime from 3 pm on. You might check with your diocese to see if they have a similar rule.

    The office for mid-day is Sext, of course, so sometimes we kept the church open after Mass until Vespers, with some people praying upstairs and some having the usual coffee hour downstairs or going out to lunch. The schedule ran:
    12 - Mass; 1 - Sext; 2 - None; 3 or 4: Vespers and Benediction.

    You might be able to make a "day of recollection" out of it, with perhaps a spiritual talk, some quiet time for adoration (even without Exposition), some devotions such as Stations or the Rosary, and an opportunity for Confession.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    Sundays always have a 1st Vespers.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    We have Vespers at 3 P.M.

    I believe Protasius is right that Sundays always have first Vespers, but even if they don't, just celebrate whatever the day is on Saturday. No reason it has to be first Vespers of Sunday.

    Another option would be to do something like Sext or None and Benediction (which would allow you to do additional music during Adoration).

    Another thing to consider is that the people who come for Vespers might be different than the people who come for Mass. We have a number of people who come to Vespers at our Church, who don't come to our morning T.L.M., because they have ministry commitments elsewhere on Sunday mornings.
  • TorquemadaTorquemada
    Posts: 20
    Thank you all for your helpful comments. Yes it has crossed my mind to propose another office for Sunday, such as terce before Mass or Sext afterwards.

    However, I was not aware that every Sunday had a 1st and 2nd Vespers. From looking at my Liber, I assumed that 1st Vespers were celebrated only for certain feasts as it contains 1st Vespers chant propers for only a handful of feasts. Does this mean that, if the Liber does not provide a distinct set of 1st Vespers propers, does one say the sole entry for Vespers twice (Saturday and Sunday evening)? ... Does this also mean that the office of Saturday Vespers is optional and can always be replaced with 1st Sunday Vespers?

    Thanks for the help!
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    By definition, 1st Vespers is sung on Saturday evening. It is only overridden by a feast (2nd Vespers) that outranks a Sunday. Personally, as much as I love Vespers, I couldn't bring myself to celebrate it detached from its daily significance as a prayer at day's end. Instead, why don't you consider Lauds, which is almost exactly like Vespers but with different texts? You could celebrate that before the early Mass, then do some spiritual reading or rehearse for Mass before that liturgy.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,476
    You might consider just combining vespers with mass. In this form, you have the opening, the invitiatory, the the hymn, the office psalmody and the magnificat.The mass proceeds as normal, with the intercessions from the office.
    At my seminary, we do this on every feast day, and can easily get through the whole liturgy in less than an hour.
    I think this form was invented for situations as yours.
    You could consult the book Ceremonies of the Liturgical Year vol. II by Msgr. Peter Elliot.
    GH
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    ghmus7, that's not possible in the traditional rite (1962 Missal), which is the topic of the thread.
  • TorquemadaTorquemada
    Posts: 20
    Sorry for the late reply, gentlemen. Thank you all for your responses. Right now we're debating whether to have Sunday 1st Vespers on Saturday evening or perhaps Terce (or Lauds) before Mass on Sunday.

    Regardless, how wonderful it is to even be having such a discussion in our parish! Thanks again, everyone.
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