Msgr. M. Francis Mannion's comments on the liturgy
  • Ryan MurphyRyan Murphy
    Posts: 79
    I was a little irritated by this:

    http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/6788/Msgr-M-Francis-Mannion-Defending-the-liturgical.aspx

    My response is in the comment section. What do you think?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Ryan, I received it as a reasonable, matter of fact acknowledgment snapshot of both past and present circumstances. Msgr. Mannion earned his stripes and street "cred" by establishing the Madeleine Choir School while rector at SLC's cathedral. That, to me, meant that despite my differences of opinion on his positions (Snowbird, the Mannion "modes" of liturgical music), this was a true pastor who worked from the center of our faith, the source/summit of Mass, outward into parish and cathedral ministries. Wished I'd had one of these when I directed at a cathedral a lifetime ago.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Ryan:

    I posted my comment there too.

    "Ryan is correct. The toothpaste analogy is a cover up. A more appropriate analogy would be putting the internal organs back in the body. It needs to be done. The Novus Ordo was a wholesale dissembowelment of the authentic 'organic' Latin rite."

    Another aspect of this theological issue is the warnings from the Blessed Virgin Mary that we have received for the last 175 years through Her approved apparitions, and especially the controversial third secret of Fatima (which is known by many Marianists, scholars and lay people alike) in which she directly warns about the confusion which is spread through the Church after 1960. It was why She originally wanted that part of the secret to be revealed in 1960 and never was. It will most likely become apparent very soon. I am not discounting the fact that Pope B16 will reveal this in the not too distant future.
    Thanked by 1Ryan Murphy
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Msgr Mannion has the better of it.
  • Randolph Nichols
    Posts: 398
    Perhaps those irritated with Msgr. Mannion's answers are too young to remember when he was one of the few clarion voices in support of better liturgical music. His March 1996 article in the journal Worship, "Paradigms in American Catholic Church Music," and the November 1996 article in America magazine, "Agendas for Liturgical Reform," were timely and insightful analyses of the fragmentation in the American liturgical scene. He gave some focus and hope to a generation of musicians who had completely despaired.

    His comments to OSV seem so mild in comparison to many other prominent liturgists and theologians writing today. If this article upsets you, one can only wonder how you react to real opposition.
  • Dale Fleck
    Posts: 49
    This is most curious, to say the least. I must preface my statements that they are based solely on the service sheets which I download regularly each week. I have had friends who have experienced the wonderful and I might say exceptionally fine quality of music at the cathedral in SLC. At the Solemn High Mass each Sunday, the ordinary is strictly choral and in Latin. The propers, likewise, are Gregorian Chant and are sung in Latin. Most of the motets are in Latin. So why, might I ask, are the forthcoming comments from the Msgr. which would indicate his preference for the usual "Vatican II junk" that is used widely in the U.S.? I must say that I am not a little confused.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Confused? I didn't see anyone attribute such a preference to Msgr. Mannion here. Can't find it on the OSV site either. Hm?

    I think Mannion would agree about much with Ryan: to describe the liturgical change, he uses the image of a mess of toothpaste, which is not exactly an expression of praise.

    To say that it can't be reversed is just sensible: there are good reasons not to attempt to revert to the status quo ante and redraft the post-conciliar changes. Giving people a liturgical shock was wrong in 1970, it hurt a lot of people, and it would be wrong for the Pope to do that again now. The Holy Father seems to act by modest steps.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I think this highlights in a very clear way the danger of making assumptions about what someone means and thinks apart from what they are actually communicating or attempting to communicate. This happens ALL THE TIME on Catholic blogs:

    "It's a real shame that Latin Propers have mostly been lost in the Novus Ordo Mass."
    "Oh, so you're one of those lace-wearing elitist RotR jerks who hates women?!"

    "There has always been a robust tradition of enculturation of the Liturgy, and the line between legitimate development and abuse is hard to pin down."
    "So you think it's okay to have clowns at Mass?! Don't you believe in the teaching authority of the Pope?!"

    "Theological truth is, by it's nature paradoxical, as the ultimate reality of God is beyond human understanding."
    "You relativistic heretic!"


    I believe that Ryan is doing some inappropriate exegesis on what the Msgr is trying to say, based on some presumptions about what/how people who defend V2 think.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    wow adam... you need to brush your teeth with the toothpaste that can't be put back in the tube.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    "Theological truth is, by it's nature paradoxical, as the ultimate reality of God is beyond human understanding."
    "You relativistic heretic!"

    Err... see that really is heretical though (though probably nihlist, not relativist). Truth is, by its nature, not paradoxical, even if we can't state its truth.
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