Mass I (Lux et Origo) in Modern Notation?
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    Hello All,
    I was wondering if anyone had a copy of Mass I (lux et Origo) in Modern Notation. I would like to introduce it this Easter, but I'm concerned that making a congregation sheet with the chant notation might discourage people from singing. What do you think?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    There's a Liber with modern notation here (with Mass I at p. 41 in the first PDF), but it's not a very clean scan.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Here is the version I did a few years ago for my choir, but it doesn't include the Gloria. It is meant to be printed duplex on 11x17 paper.
    Mass I Rosetta-Stone.pdf
    475K
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I don't intend to be funny, but the only people who might be put off by the chant notation are people who read music...and since the feeling seems to be that Catholics don't/can't read music, what's the problem!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    You could think of it as removing an excuse for their knee-jerk disdain. If they can read music, they can sing from modern notation. If not, they pick it up by repetition, or they don't. I don't want this to degenerate into a contest of why people do or don't sing (or should or shouldn't). I like it when the people sing, and it feels a little lonesome when they don't: but i have let go of my expectation that they will sing robustly like a meeting hall full of Welshmen. From the mental/emotional standpoint, this produces a healthier result for me, and when they do sing, so much the better.

    We used Mass I in 2007 and 2008 at Eastertide in my parish. The first few weeks, they did not sing all that well, but they got into it by Pentecost, and the next year, they picked it up right away. I think they actually liked it better than the Canedo "Mass of Glory," although hardly anyone spoke to me about it one way or another.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    No Response is a Good Response in many churches!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Andrew, and anyone else who wants them, you can also have .jpg files of a smaller format (for a printed program) of the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus in "Rosetta Stone" notation if you like. I am happy to share.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    http://www.themusicmakers.org/sibelius/R003.htm

    Scorch file in modern notation. It took a minute to find using Google.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Dagnabit, Jonathan,
    I thought I had the corner on elegant loquation, at least in Noel's estimation. But you came, saw and laid me slain with "You could think of it as removing an excuse for their knee-jerk disdain. If they can read music, they can sing from modern notation. If not, they pick it up by repetition, or they don't. I don't want this to degenerate into a contest of why people do or don't sing (or should or shouldn't). I like it when the people sing, and it feels a little lonesome when they don't: but i have let go of my expectation that they will sing robustly like a meeting hall full of Welshmen. From the mental/emotional standpoint, this produces a healthier result for me, and when they do sing, so much the better. I'm glad to know my ethos of about two decades is shared by someone else I profoundly respect.

    Okay, not only do I want your tenor, I want your elegance. I'm CMAA's Rodney Dangerfield, (that could go for Noel as well.) Or CMAA's Jackie Gleason.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I think most people pick up chant by hearing it, not by notation. But the choir should at least know how to sing from the chant notation, so the congregation is inspired to sing by hearing the beautiful chant. They need to have a good reason to sing, beauty, (if the Church's instruction is not the reason for them.) One of the parish I know tried simple Gregorian Ordinaries from the modern notation. The congregation hardly sang, even when they had the modern notation in front of them. They heard chant sang with every note hitting, while those who read notes trying to do half-note and quarter-note type thing with just note heads. (or eighth-notes and quarter-notes). Stemless note-heads just represent lifeless 'dead notes', because the stem of the modern notes are there for the RHYTHM. Without rhythm, a music is just a dead music. I know every parish is in a different situation, but 'instant' success' can't be the goal. Gregorian chant is not an instant music. Learning to sing Gregorian chant may take longer time than we want it to be, but every year it will get better if we truly try and don''t give up. It also maybe a good chance to teach the congregation by putting a brief note on reading chant notation, something like in the parish bulletin (make a space for 'a music corner') or in handouts explaining one or a couple of neums a week.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Charles, thank you for your kind words. You are indeed an eloquent writer, if that isn't too much of an oxymoron. Can you be "eloquent" if you're not talking?

    Mia, I am not advocating anything against what you have written here. I do, in fact, teach the chant mostly from Gregorian notation. However, I think it strains credulity to suggest that only the purest (or do I mean the purist?) approach will help the congregation. My experience with my own congregation tends to the opposite; your mileage may vary.

    I had to chortle when I read that part about "instant success" - I've been trying to pull the boat into the right direction, slaving away in the Sacro-pop trenches for 19 years. The only thing "instant" around here is the Café Bustelo.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I agree with you JDE. I think one way or another is up to the music director according to the parish situation, but what I am trying to say is that the choir and the music director should have the knowledge of chant notation and sing chant as beautifully as they can, so they they can inspire the congregation. I don't think that's what 'purist' means.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Okay, I agree. Now, how are the choir supposed to inspire the congregation with their square-note prowess, other than by singing it in an inspired way? My guess is that the average person in the pew is indifferent to the notation, since they probably can't read oval notes either.

    The singing is more important than the way it is captured on paper. Even Gregorian notation, while it is much better for expressing how the chant is meant to be sung, falls short of representing the way it should sound.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    [deleted]
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    This is why I think that announcing changes in music and explaining them at Mass is counter-productive. Tell them something is going to be different puts up all sorts of mental barriers.

    Instead, just doing it, without explanation has a much more gradual effect.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Frogman, I couldn't agree more. People get used to it. The ones who want to sing, sing; the ones who don't, won't be convinced by being forced to rehearse they are predisposed to dislike.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    JDE: I also agree wholeheartedly. It was a great epiphany to me that at least 15% of Catholics will NEVER sing anything, no matte what we "offer" them to sing. We need to offer TO GOD the best we have, and that includes celebrants and liturgists. What each member of the congregation does during Mass is between them and God.

    miacoyne: Thanks for calling stemless notation "dead". I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't mind it, especially the way "Hova Organi Harmonia" does it. It's GIA that bothers me - the way they ignore rhythmic conventions and leave out traditional episimae and dots. I still believe the best modern notation system for chant is with eighth notes as the base, as Canon Douglas produced in The Hymnal 1940 -- separate flags for individual syllabic texts, and beamed to signify neumes.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    We provide square note ordinaries- for chanted ordinaries, but the congregation really does not use them. In fact even when we sing an ordinary form the hymnal the congregation is not informed as to which setting.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    We tell the congregation, but we don't announce it during Mass. I publish a leaflet of service music to tuck into the back of the hymnal. Of course, a marvelous thing about using the Gregorian Ordinaries is that they are public domain, so no copyright notice is necessary.

    Letting go of your expectations is helpful to the outcome, believe it or not, and it is definitely better for your ego. Why should you take on yourself the responsibility of every person to participate? That's their responsibility. I have enough to deal with in leading and/or making music.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    As an aside, I wonder if Catholic Welshmen actually *do* sing? Hmmm . . . .
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Steve C, Thanks.
    In my opinion, unless an organist can accompany the singing without the score, modern notation works better in accompanying the chant ( Because the organist is playing a few notes at the same time, I just cannot imagine the chant notation in parts playing at the same time. Maybe some people do, I don't know.). But important thing to remember is that accompanying chant is to truly serve the singing and not to lead or decorate the singing, unlike accompanying for singing German Chorale style Protestant hymns. Therefore, listening to the singing and following it are more important than what we have in the front. Of course when we sing, this applies also. But the singing has to be more expressive than the mere accompaniment, therefore the chant notation I think is a better tool to express the beauty of the music when we sing chants.
    My previous post wasn't pointing to people who use modern notation. I just wanted to share my opinion with those who are considering which one to use and for whom. Knowledge, skills, and notations are tools as well as good listening skills and musical ears for making beautiful music. And how to use the knowledge and transfer it to a performance are life-long challenges to a musician himself, although it may not be the immediate expectations from non-musicians.
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    "Andrew, and anyone else who wants them, you can also have .jpg files of a smaller format (for a printed program) of the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus in "Rosetta Stone" notation if you like. I am happy to share."

    JDE,
    you made this offer last year... I was wondering if you would be able to send me this? Thanks!
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