The idea has always sounded nice to me in principle, and I have heard of at least one priest doing it, but the thing that I cannot understand is how the homily would be handled. It seems really tedious to give two brief homilies, one in each language, or to have a translator translating on the fly (as I have seen done in one parish for a bilingual Mass).

Another consideration is that the hispanics seem to have a much worse liturgical background than the Americans, so you have sort of two different levels of understanding coming into one group. There would have to be a lot of preparatory tailor-made catechesis, I would think.

I am very interested in this idea, however, and look forward to comments from those who may have already tried it or seen it done.

I suggested this once, but was shot down immediately. The answer in my parish was doing bilingual Masses, which IMO, served only the bilingual. Many of the anglos complained that they attended only half a Mass. The answer I got was a sarcastic "Oh yeah, sure. We'll do a Mass in a language that NONE of the people will understand."

I agree with bjerabek. The hispanic community is even farther back than the anglos on Latin, even though Spanish and Latin share so many actual words. The syntax is not at all the same, though. Latin is closer to German in that sense.

In any case, priests are already so afraid of losing latinos to the Pentecostal churches, that I doubt many would actually ask them to do much work...

moconnor

"Oh yeah, sure. We'll do a Mass in a language that NONE of the people will understand."

But yet that's my argument for Latin, roughly. Latin carries the same meaning these days for Americans as for Hispanics. And this really is the "progressive" thing to do - it favors no one's culture over another. No one group need feel excluded, because everyone (as a culture) IS "excluded". I saw those videos of the Coronation Mass performed during a papal Mass in Rome and had to think, "every nation represented in that group was presented with the EXACT same musical experience." Does it matter if they "all" understand it or not when you have the good of unity in the understanding or misunderstanding?

Of course, the parish could just offer ESL lessons, but that's another topic altogether...

I would like to hear from someone who could perhaps speak to the musical and liturgical traditions of Mexico and Central America. I don't think it's a secret that the majority of Spanish speaking parishioners we have are immigrants who are not wealthy or well educated, and sometimes our attempts to reach out to them fall on deaf ears. To give an example: we have an organist who is a classically trained musician from Spain. His attempts to present music which was not even something I would like (what I would classify as "Spanish OCP") at our Spanish liturgy was not well received, and now that Mass has returned to "mariachi-style". Is this typical? I know there is a TLM in Mexico, but I wonder if they are worse off than we are.

I know there is a TLM in Mexico, but I wonder if they are worse off than we are.

The TLM is very rare in Mexico. The recent one in Mexico City was the first in a good while. One would expect that in a place like Mexico City there would be at least one every day, but you're lucky to find one in a month. Mexico has suffered far worse than we ever did from the Spirit of Vatican II.

My experience was that many parishes in larger cities still have an organist, and the music is not awful. They have some very beautiful and very moving hymns to Our Lady that they sing on certain days. They tend to sing the same set of songs, though.

Contrary to what some might expect, I didn't encounter a lot of guitar. In the rural parishes where they did not have an organ or at least not an organist, they just sang a capella. Most of the hymns were folk (in the better sense of the word -- i.e. having arisen from a culture and not having been new compositions after a genre) and again, some were quite beautiful.

The charismatic renewal is quickly growing in Mexico and I fear the effects of this. It seems rather unchecked and even encouraged by some of the bishops. I have no problem with this movement "in principle" but it is clear to me at least after several years of observing things in the states that this movement needs good oversight, or else it goes in the direction of an anti-sacramental emphasis and quasi-Protestant worship forms. In any event it is a very odd experience of cognitive dissonance to walk into a 400-year-old heavily decorated gold-leaf-everything Spanish baroque church and hear cacophonous guitars and tambourines and wailing over a microphone.

I would honestly love to find someone who can tell me what things were like in Mexico before the Council. Did they have scholas to sing the propers? What kind of congregational singing was there? Etc... I think if we could get these kind of answers, then we could have a direction for approaching the pastoral problem now on our hands, i.e. by re-introducing their own customs that they have lost. If they just perceive what we are doing to be "Roman" or "American", they won't like it. But if we can make a convincing case that this is the way things were in Mexico.... even in the rural areas (if it was the case).... then I think we could move ahead with the Hispanic folks in the direction of reform. A monumental task that will take a long time I think, especially given the still fairly transient population in this country.

henry, did your pastor say the Spanish Masses? I think that would certainly make it easier to persuade them.

I should mention that, in addition to Spanish, we have a large Filipino population, and our annual Simbang Gabi will be starting soon. They tried trilingual liturgies at some point, which satisfied even fewer people than the bi-lingual ones.

This was one experience, one brief experience. I attended a mass for the eve of Jan. 1 a few years ago and it was a bi-lingual Mass. The Offetory was Immaculate Mary, one verse in english, one verse in Spanish, refrain is the same (Latin), I loved the fact we could all sing the refrain together.

P.S. I forgot to indicate that Hispanic attending an Extraordinary Form Mass in Latin wouldn.t goe down too well as most are fully engaged at COMMUNITARIAN RESPONSE common in the Ordinary Form. The idea of simply reflecting and pondetring the Sacred Mysteries would be a real challange. Consider how the priest would feel if his Hispanic congregation are sayig their rosaries out lloud during the Mass or coming up the center aisle on therir knees carrying votive candles or "mandas" for the Virgencita por to a particular Santito while Mass was in progress! vThis was a reality prior to the changes of VaticanII. THIS WAS THE CATHOLIC WORSHIP FOR 400 IN LATIN AMERICA!!!

"This is still the USA - with an official English language. "

Not arguing with any of your premises, but I'm not sure this is accurate.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Clarification:

The masses are not sung in their entirety; I meant to say there is chant for some of the Ordinary, and metrical hymns for the usual places.

GregP has been to my parish and sung with us. Over dinner, he and his lovely bride and I discussed some of these issues he raises because our parish demographics are quite similar. And since his visit we have consolidated three primarily Spanish language parishes into a mini "See." What most of our clergy see seemingly through rose-colored glasses as hospitality and charity extended to the "strangers in our midst" by increasing the number of non-English liturgies and ministerial offices, many others (including myself, in truth) see a regression from Pentecost to Babel.
Opportunity or dilemma? In either case, for us workerbees to get to the vines, we have to deal with this artichoke of logistical problems: pastors who measure liturgical success by how loud the volume of singing of anything is; who believe that only the mariachi/conjunto/TexMex style of music can elicit participation; who believe that the liturgy can be mitigated to a certain degree through a "rally" sort of populist mentality. And, if such pastors happen to be Anglos who have come out of the Southern California/Mahony/Cesar Chavez "I have street cred 'cause I'm fluent in Spanish culture, it's hard for this observer to not regard their leadership as larger and more effective than being a colonial Padron of a large ranchero that happens to be a parish. (Yes, that's code for Cult of Personality.)
Practically for any well-rounded DM, this is one large artichoke with a zillion prickly leaves to peal; and frankly in my situation, I don't know if I'll ever get to its heart with my pastor.
This is what I typically hear:
On any given Sunday at English Masses, great European hymns are taken up, a very well crafted Mass is sung, certain acclamations and Propers are chanted, and one or two contemporary songs are sung, an organ prelude or postlude has its voice heard, etc. Out of the pastor's mouth something like "That was all very nice" is mentioned. Then, a while later, I'll hear from the same mouth "Oh, the singing of the people out in the mission parish was fantastic! I don't know what hymnbook they were using (it's green and has a guitar on the front cover,) but they were singing with all their heart. (Subtext being- wow, was that emotionally fulfilling!)
Now, on the other hand as I've mentioned here elsewhere, I go to a state prison on Mondays and lead singing in chapel yards where 95% of those present are predominantly Spanish language speakers. But, as there's no priest with me, I introduce the fellows to ALL forms of music the Church has treasured. They're not total neophytes, they're certainly used to the "popular" (Spanish pronunciation) style of their youth and upbringing. But they're also hungering, thirsting for being connected to all things CHURCH they cannot otherwise experience inside prison walls daily and on Sundays.
So, my point is simply that I know, empirically, that at the "ad fontes" of even the least abled to the most hardened, there is a desire to sing praise and prayer to their sole savior, even IF SOME OF THEM DON'T UNDERSTAND A WORD OF WHAT THEY'RE SINGING! And the reverse effect on me is just as powerful. When they take up the inexplicable power of singing "Holy God" without reservation, I conversely am honored to be able to phonetically sing the simple refrains of their Flor y Canto psalm responses and verses with them, tho' I have a minimal understanding of what each phrase means.
But when I'm back working at the ranchero, the Padron's vision is pretty much all consuming. At our English Masses, no one blinks if Pan de Vida, Pescador, or the clever reworkings of OEW and BNA from OCP to bilingual mode are programmed. But were I to request that the Coro and congregation at the Spanish language Mass were to include "Holy, Holy, Holy" for this Sunday, I'd be met with a glassy-eyed, "what the hell are you thinking?" stare.
Well, I don't have the simple answer. I think to some extent that there's some merit to melding a coalition of repertoire that includes the primary treasures of Latin chant and polyphony, the re-setting of the Ordinary, the Propers, other service music and hymns in Latin to more contemporary styles ala Berthier, Hurd and Manalo, and the on-going cultivation and sharing among diverse ethnic groups the hymnic and service music treasury of English language musics.
I don't think many of my generation will live long enough to hear such a shift. I can only imagine (yikes, was that a Michael W. Smith quote!) that at some point in my cosmological future that I will hear a true sonic communion between the choirs of angels and saints around me and the earthly chorus in full consonance.

You know, maybe you need to look into what music they use at the missionary parish. Maybe you need to give them the Parish Book of Chant as a present. :)

But seriously, there's a lot to be said for strengthening the bonds between parishes. Besides it just being the right thing, you might be able to do something cool. You won't know what until you look into it. (Maybe folks in your parish can donate instruments they're not using, that sort of thing.) Also, if your pastor sees that you really are not an enemy of the people, he might be a little more willing to respect _your_ diversity. :)