• Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    The difference between a Lexus and a Toyota is the degree of acceptable variance from specifications.

    The EF is a Lexus; the OF is a Toyota.

    I drive a Toyota, but I think there is a way in which a Lexus is, objectively speaking, better.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I'm sure there are substantial analyses to be made about the differences of the EF and OF, and arguments in favor of the EF (in the writings of e,g., Martin Mosebach or Klaus Gamber.)

    On the other hand, I don't think the analogy Kathy proposes is really apt: the difference between the EF and OF is not a matter of the more or less perfect performance of the respective rubrics.
  • Oh, now you've done it. Unwittingly or not, you've unleashed a concocted hybrid (we all know they're pretty pathetic) between a natural man's idolatry towards all things "cars" (an anthropologic and anthropomorphic malaise centered in mans' very bowels!) with the noble man's inclination towards rituals, especially those that are source and summit of their existential being, somewhere betwixt head and heart on my GPS.
    The Lexus/Toyota comparison falls clearly among hundreds of such denominational concerns, such as whether an Anglo-Catholic Mass led by a fairly isolated, loosely affiliated archbishop trumps a Sunday Vespers at Westsminster CoE done by the rector.
    Everyone knows the RC EF is a Bugatti Veyron, Kathy!
    Chariot of God.
    Back to my troll hole.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Lexus??? Clearly, they pay you more than they pay me. Although I do suspect a Lexus is a superbly marketed Toyota. Was it Lexus in 19th century Russia? It was not! Is outrage. ;-)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Is outrage!

    I don't mean that the EF adheres more closely to the rubrics, although there is less allowance for deviation from those standards as well. I mean that the EF adheres more closely to the theological underpinnings of our faith. It grooves with the truth, fits with it, hand in glove.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I would have to agree with you there.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles!

    If you EVER get to drive a Bugatti before I do, I will be eternally jealous. ...and Kathy, I am getting really close to putting my hands... in leather driving gloves, because the Bugattis are looking for drivers these days!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    The OF is of course valid and excellent. I mean, c'mon, it's the Roman Catholic Mass.

    But the revisions were designed with a particular goal in mind, "...In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work..." (SC 14)

    The goal of the conciliar reforms had a certain outward quality, a movement towards communication of the mysteries, over and above the exactly clear presentation and enactment of the mysteries.
  • Lexus is actually a division of Toyota.

    Plus, wasn't there an awful brake issue with Toyotas???
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I thought it was a problem with acceleration out of control.

    "Many Lexus vehicles are manufactured in Toyota's flagship Tahara plant, a highly sophisticated, computerized manufacturing plant in Japan.[133][181] Lexus production techniques include methods and standards of quality control that differ from Toyota models.[182][183] At the Tahara plant, separate assembly lines were developed for Lexus vehicles,[182][184] along with new molds and specialized manufacturing equipment.[184] Welding processes, body panel fit tolerances, and paint quality requirements are more stringent.[182][185] Lexus plant workers, typically veteran technicians, are identified via repeated performance evaluations and ranked according to skill grade, with limited applicants accepted.[186] The highest level takumi (Japanese for "artisan") engineers are responsible for maintaining production standards at key points in the assembly process, such as testing engine performance.[56] Production vehicles are given visual inspections for flaws, individually test-driven at high speeds, and subjected to vibration tests.[182]...

    In 2005, J.D. Power and Associates bestowed its Platinum award for worldwide plant quality on the Tahara plant for the fourth consecutive year, stating that it has the fewest defects of any manufacturing plant in the world.[188] In 2006, J.D. Power named the Miyata plant, then the site of ES and IS model production, as its recipient of the Platinum award for worldwide plant quality,[189] and in 2009 the Higashi Fuji plant, site of SC production, received the same recognition.[190] J.D. Power has named Lexus the most reliable brand in the U.S. fourteen times since 1995,[191] according to its Vehicle Dependability Survey of over 53,000 vehicle owners and the first three years of ownership.[192][193] In the 2000s, Consumer Reports also named Lexus among the top five most reliable brands in its Annual Car Reliability Surveys of over one million vehicles across the U.S.[194][195]"

    182.^ a b c d Dawson 2004, pp. pp. 88–94
    183.^ Mahler 2004, p. 90
    184.^ a b Mahler 2004, p. 78
    185.^ Sanger, David (1990-01-03). "Japan's Luxury-Car Gains Pose New Threat to Rivals". The New York Times. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE6DE163EF930A35752C0A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1. Retrieved 2008-06-19.
    186.^ Kageyama, Yuri (2007-06-28). "At Lexus 'dojo' plant workers train on virtues to keep up quality, build elite team". Associated Press. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/29/business/AS-FIN-Japan-Toyota-Lexus.php. Retrieved 2007-08-26.

    188.^ "Toyota, GM Garner Most Awards in 2005 Initial Quality Study". J.D. Power and Associates. 2005-05-18. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2005069. Retrieved 2007-05-06.
    189.^ "Lexus and Toyota Together Capture 11 of 19 Initial Quality Model Awards". J.D. Power and Associates. 2006-06-07. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2006082. Retrieved 2007-05-06.
    190.^ "Import Nameplates Capture 15 of 22 Segment Awards". J.D. Power and Associates. 2009-06-22. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009108. Retrieved 2009-07-06.
    191.^ "Lexus and Toyota Models Each Rank Highest in Four Segments". J.D. Power and Associates. 2006-08-09. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2006133. Retrieved 2007-05-06.
    192.^ "Buick and Lexus Brands Tie for Highest Rank in Vehicle Dependability". J.D. Power and Associates. 2007-08-09. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007130. Retrieved 2007-08-09.
    193.^ "Lexus Ranks Highest in Vehicle Dependability for a 14th Consecutive Year". J.D. Power and Associates. 2008-08-07. http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115. Retrieved 2008-11-16.
    194.^ "Consumer Reports Annual Survey Ranks Lexus First in Predicted Reliability for 2006 Models". Consumer Reports. 2006-03. Archived from the original on 2008-04-06. http://web.archive.org/web/20080406054103/http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cu-press-room/pressroom/archive/2006/04/eng0604rel.htm. Retrieved 2010-07-12.
    195.^ "Scion Tops Consumer Reports Reliability Study". Associated Press. 2008-03. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27341890/. Retrieved 2008-10-23.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I'm not sure I understand the comparison. Is there really an analogy here? And where does Porsche fit in?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Porsche = divine liturgy
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    hmmm.... I guess the yugo is the contemporary rock guitar Mass?

    http://balkansnet.org/yugocar.html
  • Gavin, you ain't been keepin' up with current events. Porsche opted to enter the sedan/saloon 4 door market.
    That ain't Divine Liturgy, that's the Megachurch, Hawaiian shirt, Latte during a 45 minute sermon Word and Song Service.
    Doesn't anybody keep up with BBC Top Gear catechesis anymore? Yeesh.
  • So, the Pope-mobile would be a Papal Mass?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Lamborghini is a Papal Pontifical High Mass.

    Lexus is entry-level luxury liturgy, a parish Low Mass celebrated well.
  • I own a Toyota Yaris. It's for the no frills early morning Mass people who leave very little in the collection basket. :)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    The Rolls Royce factory went to the Anglicans, although Westminster Cathedral kept a dealership. Looking forward to more of that in the near future!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    The OF is a horse; the EF is a camel. So far.
  • I thought I was incorrigible. Liam, you cad, no camel for you; you ride the dromedary. I ride the kangaroo.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I wasn't sold on Kathy's original comparison--the EF "grooving" more with the truth than the OF. Where does that leave the OF in terms of its "truth content"?

    For me, the Lexus:EF::Toyota:OF analogy holds with respect to "refinement." The big difference between Lexus and Toyota is refinement. I drive a 2003 Toyota Highlander that has Toyota's 1MZ-FE V6 engine in it. The Lexus RX300 from the same model year has the exact same engine; the guts are the same between the two models. Ride in a Lexus RX300, however, and the difference is noticeable. It is quieter and more aesthetically pleasing--in a word, refined.

    Does the comparison hold between the EF and the OF? If we are to believe that the OF does not represent rupture, then maybe we can agree that the "guts" are basically the same. When I teach the medieval mass to my undergraduates, the Catholics are way ahead of the curve because they see practically all the familiar parts. What actually does separate the EF from the OF? Could it be the centuries-long refinement it underwent--something the OF is only just now starting to experience as an infant? The externals are different (and maybe a few engine "tunes") but the engine itself is the same.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Lexus, Bugatti, Porsche. Are you sure you guys work in church music? I have a 6-year-old Corolla. You must be moonlighting. ;-)
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Mine's 11 years old, Charles--and a Prizm at that, Corolla rebadged by GM!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ford expedition.... gotta have an suv here.

    although this was by far my fav of all time

    http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/16179/635csi-L.jpg

    body fell apart... engine was at 289000 and would have run forever
  • 06 Dodge Magnum SRT (Street Racing Technology) 400 hp, for when I want to live up to my scary reputation.
    92 Saab 900S cabriolet for when I need to appear progressive and hip.

    We should start a litany of the vehicles:

    Beloved Mercedes 400, zoom for us.
    Blessed quiet Prius, whine for us.
    Mighty Camaro, roar for us
    Holy Honda Accord, bore us to yore....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    DougS, I remember the prizm. They were supposed to be pretty good cars. In my younger days I was into Trans Ams. But I worked for the feds at the time, not in church music.
  • So the rumors about you being an undercover federal agent specializing in moonshine stills are true! I've always wondered about that.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Not to be sexist but I think that maybe guys take cars too seriously to follow my analogy. We're just talking about an aspect of car manufacturing, precision motoring as such, but not cars.

    On the other hand, the Ambrosian rite is a Maserati.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    No moonshine stills. I was in the nuclear part of the government. Not nearly as exciting.

    Of course we take cars seriously! Cars were our first loves.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    Charles, the EF, being oriented to the East, must be a Bactrian camel.
  • Dagnabit, Liam, on top of everything else, you're a zoologist!
    That's just not right.
    Kathy, I told you the thread would go this way. No one should employ automobiles as analogies to anything, not even our first loves, to a crowd full of guys.
    Redundant: The Gospel according to "Top Gear."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    The EF is baseball; the OF is football.

    or

    The EF is college basketball.
  • The EF is sitting with the adults at Thanksgiving dinner.

    The OF is sitting at the kiddie table.

    At the adult table, you know what is going to happen. At the children's table you often dread what is going to happen, especially if they are your children. And you warn others about what might happen if they go near it.
  • The EF is collegiate chess.

    The OF is pickup collegiate flag football. No one's supposed to get hurt, but it happens probably because it's a league where the rules are customarily ignored.
  • Finally! A thread I can scroll throught totally LMAOROTF!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The EF is a velociraptor: totally scary to people who have only seen it in Hollywood movies, brought back from extinction by a team of brilliant researchers, and threatening to gobble up all the other (more folksy and slow-moving) dinosaurs.
  • Adam, you do realize that Ford-Hennessy has a production supercar dubbed "Velociraptor?"
    Now, I'm just playin' wit'choo-

    The EF was never encased in amber remnants, ergo ne'er extinct. Chant, OTOH would be more analogous, what with Solemnes' "team of brilliant researchers."
    And from what can be gathered from PT, NPM and just general observation from parish to parish, North/South/East/West, the EF will hopefully be like the Siberian Tiger or the Pandas, just perfect should they regain a foothold in the ecology and allowed to go forth and multiply.

    Now, to further embarass Kathy for starting this alphabet soup of metaphors, and also give myself away as a true Cad-
    The EF Mass is to exquisite, sacred worship beauty, as Dame Helen Mirren is to timeless, exquisite and take-your-breath-away complete human beauty. Helen of Troy don't hold a candle.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Did you know that Velociraptor attack is the 3rd leading cause of death for men age 27-29? http://www.velociraptors.info/

    The EF is Nanny McPhee:

    First lesson - To stop fighting - Hair goes from gray to brown
    Second lesson - To get up when they are told - Upper wart disappears
    Third lesson - To get dressed when they are told - Lower wart disappears
    Fourth lesson - To listen (and say thank you) - Unibrow disappears and earlobes shrink
    Fifth lesson - To do as they are told - Snaggle tooth disappears, nose gets smaller

    For that matter, the OF is Nanny McPhee too.
  • Well, if I'm Bartlett, Wood, Ostrowski or Gavin, I'd stay away from rainforests.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Kathy-

    Are you saying that if we were more obedient, then liturgy would be more attractive?

    like it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Yes, and also that obedience + liturgy beautifies us.
  • For some needed feminine influence here, might I propose some treats from the dessert menu?

    The OF is a very decent single portion of creme brûlée, with options for berries of all sorts.
    The EF is a large layered tiramisu, needing time to enjoy and fostering reflection.