A question on notation
  • Voce
    Posts: 16
    Here is a question from a chant novice. Not a complete novice however; I have been to two of Scott Turkington's excellent workshops, most recently the one in New Orleans. I live in a parish that is on the fringe between rural countryside and outer suburbia. No professional musicians and not much high art, and no Latin. Along with a couple of colleagues, we're working on bringing chant here, starting first with self-education.

    I have an issue with chant notation, however. I have by now learned and am completely comfortable with square notes, neumes, and solfege. No undue problems, and reasonably easy to pick up the basics. What has been difficult is the shifting around of the position of "do" on the staff, depending upon the mode...I find it confusing and thus somewhat difficult to sight read when jumping from mode to mode in a group of chants, and cannot quite seem to get the hang of it. Yes, I know that the positions of "do" or "fa" are given with a clef sign, but I find it awkward that the position of "do" and of course the half steps move in various modes (in standard notation it moves too of course, but one typically is not using solfege with it, and there is of course a key signature). I read standard musical notation reasonably well--though I have no formal music training--so it is irritating not to get the hang of this. It affects my sight reading because when jumps and unfamiliar passages occur, I tend to hesitate (and err). And I worry that I shall not be alone as we introduce chant notation to others in our parish.

    I noticed that David Hiley, in his recent book on Gregorian chant (Cambridge Press), uses a standard five line staff, with a fixed position of "do" on the second line from the bottom. Problem solved! All eight modes fit quite well on the staff when written this way, and one learns quickly where do re etc are--and they always stay there. However, Hiley has done away with square notes and neumes, which I have grown to like and value. He uses oval-shaped standard notes (although he does at least group them into rhythmic neume-like groups) and has his own symbols for liquescents, quilismas and the like. All in all, I find it much easier to read his system, if ONLY because of the fixed position of "do"; otherwise, I think square neumes are more compact and in the end easier to read.

    So the questions: Has anyone experimented with a system like Hiley's, or with a system that places square notes on a five line staff with fixed position of "do"? And are there any books out there written in such a way, for the Ordinary mass settings?

    Oh dear, I hope I haven't set off the purists with my ignorance.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,725
    do a search for hybrid notation on this forum. i developed this for exactly this reason. then we can talk after you look at it. email me privately.

    there is one thing i can tell you. hybrid will delay your becoming fluid with gc so think twice.
  • Voce
    Posts: 16
    Thanks, Francis. I figured somebody on this knowledgeable forum would have thought about this at one time or another. I'll read the notes and get back to you.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Not to open a can of worms, but just a few quick comments. The position of Do (or Fa) on that staff has nothing to do with the mode, but with the compass of notes in a given melody. Now it might be that the melodies in certain modes tend to fit best onto the staff with the Fa clef, or with the C-clef in a certain position, but this is a coincidence. You may see the same chant notated in different ways in different editions. The position of a clef is not an indication of mode. Also, the half-steps do not "move" in different modes. They are always between mi and fa, ti and do, and occasionally la and te (ti flat).
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Have faith, Voce, this is a temporary problem. It's particularly acute for people who have more extensive experience with reading modern notation - I struggled with it for awhile.

    One thing that helped me was to have a keyboard which can transpose. When you're playing just on the white notes, it's real easy to move around, and you find that it's just the number of keys between two notes that matters. So you can play along on the keyboard, transposed to a convenient range, while you sing.

    In my experience, it took a few hours of this and I was good to go. It's just some kind of internal mental switch that has to happen.
  • Voce
    Posts: 16
    "Also, the half-steps do not "move" in different modes. They are always between mi and fa, ti and do, and occasionally la and te (ti flat)."
    Hi incantu; that was not the sort of movement I was referring to. I was discussing the way that 'do,' and all the other notes of the 7 note solfege scale, as well as the positions of the two half steps, move their positions relative to the four lines of the STAFF, depending upon the placement of the 'do' or' fa' clef. They bob around the staff quite a bit, depending upon the position of that 'do' or 'fa' clef....and those clefs usually change along with the modes...although I take your point that they may not necessarily shift in all cases.

    Carl D, thanks for the advice; I'll keep on plugging at it. And indeed I am very familiar with transposing white keys on a variable keyboard. I play a (diatonic) anglo concertina (Irish music), which is somewhat like a diatonic harmonica. If one sticks to playing just the buttons along a single row (or a single harmonica), then you just get the seven white key notes of the solfege scale. If I read music in the key of C, and play the buttons on a row pitched to C, then the music comes out in the key of C. If I switch to a row pitched in G (or switch to another harmonica keyed in G), then I can still read music in the key of C, but the tune comes out in G--or whatever other key for which I have a row of buttons. However, the position of solfege 'do' remains constant in its place on the row of buttons, regardless of the key; it is the pitch that changes.

    That is precisely what the choir does when it adjusts pitch to suit its voices (or their conditions!). As long as one keeps the solfege scale to heart, there is no issue with changing pitch. I certainly get that, and I know you understand my position, as you mentioned that some folks who are a bit too used to reading standard music may stumble with chant notation in this regard. That is indeed my case.

    All is was wishing for was a staff notation system where 'do' remains at a fixed position on the staff. The monks' system seems to this novice to be a little overly complicated in this regard. That is clearly what Hiley over at Cambridge Press was thinking, hence the 'fixed do' staff notation system that he (or someone else) devised, for all modes. But if that is not the best way to learn, or perhaps more importantly, if there is not much sheet music available in such a system, then so be it. I'm not too old a dog to learn a new way. Thanks, all, for the advice!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,725
    i can give you the hybrid algorythm to convert any 4 line to 5 line if you are still interested
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    That's why lines were developed in the first place - to tell you where the half steps are. Back in the old days, there were often only two lines -- Do and Fa, colored red and yellow. Perhaps you could take a page from history and highlight the lines that show where the half steps are until the clef is enough to tell you. Fortunately, unlike modern music, you will never have Do or Fa on a space!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Incantu,

    I am a fan of the "find your half steps" method of singing, because (in a very short time) you can sing any melody with absolute confidence the first time . . . perfectly!

    Although, I may have "pushed" this method a little bit . . . excessively with the intermediate men in the 2010 Colloquium . . . but I really believe in this method.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    And when he says "I may have 'pushed' this method a little bit" ... he means it. We went around the entire group, and had each of us sing one whole step above the previous person. That can be very difficult! You want to put those half steps in there!

    By the way, Jeff, when you came around to me I looked innocent and you bypassed me!! Phew!!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,607
    Recognizing the half steps is, as has been said, everything.

    A Gregorian Chant Coloring Book for Children & Adults uses the Green and Red lines tradition as its basis. The teacher's book, which is printed in color, is complete; the student book is on the verge of completion with the artist doing the artwork now doing the final ink drawings for the panels.

    More when it is done.

    image
  • Voce
    Posts: 16
    Jeff, Greg, Noel,

    Thanks...that may be the memory trick I needed. I'll try it.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    gregp,

    Ah . . . you escaped. I think we were probably short on time.

    I didn't want to embarrass anyone, but the point I was trying to make was that "pulling intervals out of thin air" can be more difficult that some might think . . . especially after one gets the wrong "scale" in one's head!
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    For awhile I tried coloring the DO line as blue, or the FA line as green. But it didn't take me long to notice that I wasn't really using it. Like I said, this is a temporary learning situation. Once you get past the training wheels stage, you'll never look back.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Hey Greg, he didn't even get to me! I was bummed. My affection and respect for JMO is only matched by my enthusiasm to show him that some old geezers still have the right stuff.
    But JMO's "minimalist" concept aligns completely with the more codified constructs shown on Dr. Mahrt's charting of the modes, reciting tones, etc. and the series of thirds as well.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Jeff, one of my graduate theory professors called that phenomenon "the subliminal tonic," something with which most people, even great musicians, are afflicted.
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