The director at our parish is thinking of using OCP...
  • Hi Y'all that know more than me,

    My wife was an accompanist for mass yesterday, and learned that the director is leaning toward OCP for new materials as a result of the new translation.

    My wife told me that the reasons were these:

    • it's in a large font for people who can't see really well
    • they update it every year, and it'll be cheaper than a hardbound one
    • she thinks it'll be outdated soon, and there'll be another translation
    • there is a mix of modern and traditional hymns to sing


    We currently have Spirit and Song(OCP) in our pews along with The Catholic Community Hymnal (GIA). I have misgivings about OCP, and the missalette model. I know Jeffrey T. wrote about it, but I can't remember the title of his essay.

    I'm on the pastoral advisory committee, and I have a lot of misgivings about OCP.

    In the back of my mind, I'm wondering if the ICEL chants--which have been promoted here and at Chant Cafe-- have been considered, and how they might be offered for consideration? Any advice or guidance would be most welcome.

    My wife is a well liked, and respected accompanist. This relationship may prove to be helpful.

    Cheers,

    M.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The first three concerns can be addressed as well or better by using free online resources and a photocopier. WAY cheaper than either hardbound or missalettes.
    The fourth concern (mix of contemporary and traditional hymns) is even easier: keep using your current hymnals for the everything but the ordinary (until, of course, you GRADUALly move towards using the Propers).

    The only thing in the Congregational Hymnals that is going to change is the service music. If your parish is using the rest of the hymnal for "the songs," it is a huge waste of money to throw them out and replace them. It would be another story if you were planning to move away from contemporary songs and towards Propers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

    Use the ICEL chants, and print big congregational cards on heavy cardstock.
    If your parish simply MUST use a contemporary setting or two, it would be cheaper to just buy them a la carte and photocopy the "reprint boxes" for the congregation.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Missalettes are way more expensive than a hardbound. Our subscription for 500 missalettes is about $3000 per year. A one time purchase of hardbound was going to cost $7000 and that would last about ten years. That $23,000 more for missalettes over a ten year period! And then the content is sparse in a missalette (about 100 selections) compared to 500-600 in a hardbound.

    More disadvantage in a missalette is that you have a changing repertoire every three months so you can't plan. The page numbers are different every time, and that is an administrative nightmare. They also will alter texts on a whim, PC and deneutered are always issues in ours (WLP).

    Which of the "modern" hymns are worth paying for? I made my own hymnal recently for the congregation (words only). We use the CCLI license which allows me 100 songs per year and that only cost $350. Granted, it does not have much from OCP or WLP in it, but more of SpiritSong whose modern song texts seem to be more theologicaly solid, especially when addressing the Eucharist (less table, meal, and sharing ourselves as the bread for the world).

    Get a real hymnal. I dont know what the status is with the St Michaels, but it has a wide selection from all publishers and they like to stress orthodox lingo.
  • There is a CMAA person working on a project that will quite possibly quickly provide an alternative product that most parishes will find the answer to their prayers.

    I'm impressed with what he's done already and I am sure that this will be of great interest.
  • Run, don't simply walk away from OCP. My parish and diocese are completely infected by this virus and it takes a lot to finally break free of the monolith.

    By the way, Jeffrey's article is called "The Hidden Hand Behind Bad Catholic Music" or something similar.

    At our previous liturgical committee meeting, I suggested using the ICEL settings for when the Revised Roman Missal finally hits. My pastor asked me if they were like the OCP versions. I told him and the committee that the ICEL settings would be the default since they will actually be inside of the Roman Missal. I have heard some of the OCP revisions and they are just more of the same bad stuff.
  • Thanks for the replies...

    I'm assuming that these are the ICEL pieces we've been talking about. Thanks for the info about these being the "default" in the Roman Missal.

    Any advice about what venue to bring this up? I understand that the decisions will be made by February 2011. (Next month)

    Also, do y'all have any recommendations about putting these onto heavy cardstock? It seems like there would be multiple pages, rather than a front/back scenario.

    -M
  • Bring it up at the next meeting, or, ask for a special-called meeting. ASAP.
  • Here is a discussion that has links to the Ordinary of the Mass ICEL pieces in modern notation with accompaniment that I have composed and invited others to add to, to give you some more materials, in addition to the melody lines.


    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4492&page=1#Item_15
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Just to add... I'm pretty sure I remember reading that all publishers will be required by the USCCB to include the ICEL chant setting in their worship aids inline with the Order of Mass. They are also permitted to include one other of their composed Mass settings.
  • A thought- you might want to volunteer the copying portion of things, if possible. Considering your wife is an accompanist, you have easy access to the music director's planning, etc. Sometimes the extra time for copying, etc., can push a director to missallettes because they are easier- the grunt work is done.
    If you are able to offer help with those dull tasks, it might turn the
    possibility of no missallettes into an offer that can't be resisted.
  • Thank you all.

    We've got S & S and The Cath Comm Hymnal in the pews. What stuff from the ICEL website would be needed to accommodate the upcoming changes?

    MaryAnn, that's a great idea. If it's all ready to go, it's an appealing situation. The current director is taking on more responsibility in the upcoming year, so having it all set up would certainly be one less thing for her to worry about.

    Thanks,

    Mark
  • Here is the link to the ICEL settings:

    http://icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php
  • I'm looking at the link above...

    I'm guessing that the "cards" would need to have these items (in bold): Is this list correct? complete?

    Also, am I permitted to take the information and re-format the appearance so that it fits on a card?

    Thanks,

    -M

    The Order of Mass
    Introductory Rites
    • Greeting
      Penitential Act
      Kyrie
      Gloria


    The Liturgy of the Eucharist
    • Orate, Fratres


    • The Eucharistic Prayer
      • Preface Dialogue
        Sanctus
        Memorial Acclamation
        Doxology



    The Communion Rite
    • Lord’s Prayer, Embolism, and Doxology
      Sign of Peace
      Agnus Dei
      Invitation to Communion


    The Concluding Rites
    • Blessing
      Dismissal

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Yes. And I would print the chants, not the text alone.
  • Adam,

    When you say "yes" is that a yes to both permission and completeness?

    Thank you!

    M

    PS, my intent was to include the chant settings all along!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Yes to completeness, to my knowledge.
    Yes to permission, also to my knowledge.
    Disclaimer: my knowledge is often faulty.
    You should read all the notices at the ICEL website- they likely tell you what you can and cannot do in the way of copying and distributing.
  • From the ICEL site...


    Publications not subject to royalties
    No royalty is charged for reprinting ICEL translations in a publication for use at a specific Mass or celebration of an individual congregation or institution, for example: convention program booklets, jubilee Masses, ordinations, baptisms, first communions, confirmations, funerals, weddings, etc., provided that the following conditions are met:

    a. the publication is not produced by a publishing firm;

    b. the publication is not sold;

    c. the appropriate copyright notice appears on the cover, inside cover, or title page;

    d. the official editions of the texts are followed exactly.


    Would this mean that using it at my parish on a weekly basis would be a violation of the terms?

    -M
  • ..... the above is from a summary.

    This is an excerpt from the details provided in the full text at ICEL .


    ROYALTIES
    As a nonprofit body at the service of the Church in the countries where
    English is spoken, ICEL endeavors to conduct its program with just remuneration
    for translators, editors, composers, consultants, and staff and with
    expenditures directly related to liturgical purposes. To provide a continuing
    source of revenue for ICEL's current and future expenses in developing
    liturgical materials, a royalty fee is charged to all publishers.

    ICEL does not charge for the reproduction of its texts when they appear
    in materials produced by individual parishes, schools, religious houses, and
    the like for their private and non-commercial, nonprofit use. Even in such
    cases, however, the requisite acknowledgment and copyright notice should
    always appear.


    It looks like this would be ok if our parish produced worship aids for our own use.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Looks like you're good.
  • I'm going to employ what little layout skills I possess, and I'll submit the results for your review. The more eyeballs, the better.

    -M
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    aquinasadmirer

    i can help you with producing a layout if you need.
  • Francis,

    Thanks for the offer. I may need help, let me cobble together a start...

    -M
  • From a director's perspective-
    May God reward you for doing this!
    I do believe that the ease of the missallettes is a huge factor in parishes dumping $ on them. Most directors (if they are paid) are working for little pay considering hours involved, and if layout and copying tasks were delegated, it's a *huge* help.
    I'll be praying that it all works well, and the bullet (OCP subscription) can be dodged. Please keep us posted on this forum.
  • M,
    If you are meeting with the whole parish council or just the pastor and MD, I would avoid criticizing OCP outright, and focus on the real positives your idea brings.
    I'd stress 4 points-
    1- Affordability- your idea is cheaper by far than a miss. subscription or hymnals
    2- Accessibility- tailored to the needs of your parishioners
    3- Flexibility- greater choice of repertoire, esp if the director is right and things change again soon
    4- Reliability- leaning on your track record of service so the director's job is streamlined

    You've probably thought of all this, just 'putting it out there'.
  • Thanks MaryAnn,

    Your ideas are gems. Thank you! No, I did not have all of them already!

    My pastor, Fr. T. remarked a while back about our "Spirit and Song" books. He said something like: "We only sing about 20 songs out there, and the rest of the book is basically unused." I think the benefits you list as #1 and #3 help avoid the utilization problem we have with the S & S book.

    While this idea was formulating in my head, I thought about presenting Jeffrey T's essay noted earlier. Your comments confirm my gut in deciding against that. There's not much upside, and lots of potential downside for this situation. Focus on the mission, and the positive points. Negativity about OCP has no place here.

    I'm thinking of presenting the cleaned (with the help of y'all and Francis) version to the pastor and the music director individually. Any advice about how to tee-up the conversations is most welcome.

    St. Cecelia, ora pro nobis.

    -M
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I would come back around to the Pastor's statement that you only sing about 20 songs from one of your current hymnals. That's low, but not untypical. The majority of hymns in a hymnal do not get sung. So... why would you want to re-purchase all of them over and over every year? The percentage of used hymns will be a bit higher in an OCP missalette... but not enough to justify the cost.
    My suspicion is that the two hymnals you have now cover 99% of the songs/hymns your parish wants to sing on a regular basis. Point that out.
    If the reason for buying something new is the new ordinary texts- then you're buying whole hymnals for only 10% of their content. That's a bit like buying S&S for 20 songs. Waste of money.

    You might ALSO have misgivings about OCP, because of your desire for a more traditional liturgical experience. That's perfectly valid, of course- but it isn't the main issue here. The main issue is that, regardless of what style of music your parish is going to be using, adopting a disposable missalette is gigantic waste of church resources. If they really want to spend the money, they should pay the music director more. Or you, as a stipend for photocopying.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Make a hymnal then with 25 hymns, if all you sing is 20. Then you have some room to expand. 7 sheets of paper will hold it all.
  • Hi,

    As a first step, I printed the scores from ICEL on paper. Then I literally did cut and paste (with a paper cutter and glue stick) just to get an idea of how large it would be. I was able to consolidate them into nine letter-size sheets of paper. I intend to shrink the size down to 75% of the size that ICEL has.

    This prompted the question: "How big should it be?" Do any of you have experience with the size of worship aids (I don't like that word) that could tell me what size works well for something that would hold up to weekly use?

    Thanks,

    -M
  • Do any of you have experience with the size of worship aids (I don't like that word) that could tell me what size works well for something that would hold up to weekly use?

    I can't comment on reusing them from week-to-week, but I have experience making worship aids. We use them every week on a tri-fold 11 x 17 sheet.

    Licensing permissions (like OneLicense.net, etc.), hymn downloads, notation software, and cost of printing = still WAY cheaper than any hymnal or missalette.
  • Thanks Andrew,

    A tri-fold tabloid (11x17) was what I was thinking. I'll pursue that set up.

    I just need to have my two-year-old not want to "help" me so much! Then, I should be able to finish the rough draft. :)

    -M
  • There are a lot of considerations to size - if you use a letter-sized sheet (in the US) and fold it once it disappears into a hymnal, so legal size folded once tends to be the smallest that you can use if you have a hymnal.

    I recommend having a Mass Sheet Ministry - print enough for the largest Mass, have people greet and pass them out, instruct people to return at the door.

    Also, it is easy, as already said, to print little seasonal hymnals.
  • fnj et al,

    Is it silly to want to have something formatted so that staples are not required, or is this an arbitrary limitation?

    -M
  • First consideration is size of paper - anything other than letter or 11/17 starts running into money - and legal is available only in limited colors.

    Avoiding staples is ALWAYS good, I agree. The more simple and easy it is to print and fold it, the better.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    If it's longterm (not a weekly throwaway) use card stock.

    And the following should go without saying, but I'm amazed over and over by otherwise smart and talented people who make a total mess of program production:
    Straight lines; clear printing; and CLEAN, SQUARE FOLDING are very important. God deserves our best, even when folding pamphlets. I've been to lots of parishes with poorly folded programs- my first two thoughts are always: 1. They don't care much about my experience of being here. 2. They don't care much about bringing their best to God.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I am unclear about what music you want in the worship aid. If it's to be used weekly with no variation, you should consider light lamination. It will be durable, and people are less likely to "forget" and throw it away.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Get a folding machine. If for no other purpose than to watch it go. It's really very cool!
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    I've been to lots of parishes with poorly folded programs- my first two thoughts are always: 1. They don't care much about my experience of being here. 2. They don't care much about bringing their best to God.

    I don't think that's fair. They probably just care more about other aspects of the experience.

    I do the weekly programs for our Latin Mass (usually just download the Una Voce Orange County ones, sometimes with light editing.)

    We don't have ushers at that Mass. People who want a propers sheet take it off a table near the entrance. I've lately stopped folding them at all.

    While I agree that we bring our best to God, there's more to do than time to do it in. Furthermore, the translation sheet isn't the worship.

    It would cost me money to have someone else fold them. I figure people can fold their own after they pick it up. However, if you have an extra folding machine you want to donate to our parish!
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    Next consideration is durability. You wouldn't want it to disappear without trace, would you?
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Jahaza, I say this in a non-critical way, but have you tried advertising in the parish bulletin for a worship aid folder? At our parish there is a group of retired "office assistants" who volunteer to do this sort of thing. They can't be expected to do every menial task of course, but it helps the music director a lot, and they enjoy doing it (believe it or not!).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I love folding programs. If I could make my current salary folding programs instead of doing interesting software work, I would.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    Doug, that's a good suggestion.
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    If font size is truly a concern, suggest that she get some samples of the materials in Liturgical Press's "Celebrating the Eucharist" and "Sacred Song" series. Sacred Song a 3-year paperback hymnal with either a seasonal weekday (Celebrating the Eucharist) or annual Sunday (Living Liturgy) missal that is leaps and bounds better than OCP, and the missals have probably the largest and clearest print I've ever seen in a "worship aid."

    What others have suggested is a better option, but this may be a good compromise...it's certainly better (and cheaper) than OCP.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    12 point is usually the minimum for congregational participation. And that bar is set by older people like me! However, font face can sometimes alter the readability. I used 12 point in our hymnal that I made, but I used a condensed font in order to get more content into a smaller space. It's a bit harder to read, but heh. Doesn't cost much to experiment.