"Morenita, welcome home." Rocco's Whisper en Espanol
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    And so, church, here we go -- at long last, American Catholicism's Biggest Party of the year is again upon us.To kick it off, lest anyone needed further proof of the Guadalupanos' stealth inroad into the heart (and, sometime this decade, a plurality of the pewfolk) of ecclesial life on these shores, it's worth sharing that the "Super Bowl" has even arrived in what some might consider the most unlikely and hidebound of places....

    WHISPERS IN THE LOGGIA

    If anyone has paid attention over the last few years, The Rock's fascination and coverage of the Feast Day of the Patroness of the Americas, Our Lady of Guadalupe, has expanded faster and larger than a supernova. The coverage at Whispers this year is unrelenting in scope.

    I have a simple question for our little study group: is this particular liturgical calendar feast day an ecclesial event or a sociological event in real life? And, depending upon one's perspective and answer, what ought it to be?

    Or, isn't it just easier for all of us to "not go there"? Believe me, I know.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Who knows? I certainly don't. I don't pay much attention to Dec. 12 because the Dec. 8 celebration is such a major event. It is, after all, the feast of the patroness of the United States. My parish celebrates it in a big way. However, I must admit that I don't take any of the apparitions very seriously, in the first place. No one is required to believe them, and our faith certainly doesn't rest on them. I tend to view the attachments to them as more emotional than rational. But that's just me. I know many others feel differently. None of this is an answer to the question, just a personal perspective.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    Well, at my place , its is both a liturgical event and a source of cultural identity. The feast is spread out over two days with a mass commemorating "mananitas" and a mass with a re-enactment of the event. Our Mexican families are quite serious about it and spend lots of energy and time and money on the affair. Whether it is a celebration worth commenting on is not for this place.

    The next question and one that no one seems to want to answer is: is all this worth the effort and is it reasonable to expect a large diverse community to celebrate this feast with such fervor. There is no governance from the clergy regarding the celebration and those who put it together have no accountability.

    One of the arguments put forth is that she is patroness of the Americas and should be a symbol for all to love. And her apparition has some consonance with the leadership of this country, who see her as the symbol of the next generation of Catholics in North America. Lastly, she has a "positive" influence on Hispanic Catholicism according to those within the community here ,or so I have been told.

    So, while I offer no real answers, I am starting to ask the question here. As you might imagine, I am quite unpopular because of my questions. But it is my hope that we will begin to understand some of the forces at work that make this such a huge celebration.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I don't know how to distinguish sharply between an ecclesiological event and a sociological event, even when it is just a regular saint's day. But this is a corker of a story. Our Lady appeared to a poor, uneducated man, a native in a European colony--and left her image as a native woman. It's a sociological-ecclesiological statement of HERS.

    What Palmo has been trying to get across for some time, and rightly so, and George Weigel has tried to do the same, btw, is that Latino Catholic culture will be the majority culture in this country very, very soon. I think the Vatican has shown an awareness of this fact in many recent episcopal appointments, especially in Texas, and also in LA. But it has yet to be widely acknowledged on the East Coast. (A Cardinal in Texas? Why? There's one in California, isn't there?)

    Devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe is not universal among Latino cultures, but is primarily Mexican. Still, even where many Latinos are Salvadorean, there will be a special need (I think) for devotions on Dec. 12.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Yes, and we in Fresno are hoping for just such an episcopal appointment at some appropriate hour after our beloved Bsp. John is laid to rest Tuesday, along the lines of Los Angeles, San Antonio and Sacramento, (or even my beloved Oakland.)
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    As someone from South Texas, I think that this is more along the lines of culture and ethnicity and overblown emotionalism. A priest was stating that Our Lady of Guadalupe should be the Holy Day of Obligation in the United States as opposed to the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. I think that this is a step too far. No one is taking away the fact that the Blessed Mother's apparitions yielded large, wholesale conversions to the Faith in Mexico. However, unlike the Immaculate Conception, belief in the apparitions is not an article of Faith. The Church approves of apparitions, but, one is not required to believe in them.

    I go to Mass on December 12th and participate in the festivities; however, when the day falls on a Sunday, I believe that we need to put things into their proper perspective. Sunday is Sunday. There is no outcry when the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is translated to the following Monday when December 8th falls on a Sunday. In the United States, the USCCB gives us the option of either celebrating OLG on December 11th or December 13th. The GIRM makes it quite clear that Sundays in Advent need to be respected.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    I don't see where we have to set up any kind of dichotomy between Dec. 8 and Dec. 12. Obviously, you make a sort of "mini-Marian season in Advent" out of it. This is where stuff like novenas or forty-hours devotions or suchlike could be useful. Maybe a little bit of vespers every night, with Mananitas in the morning on Dec. 12, and maybe stuff for Dec. 13 for your Fatima devotees in the parish. You could even lead into things like Our Lady of the Expectation later in the month.

    We're so minimalist in the US. Maybe we could be a little more maximalist. Then there's room for all the saints' days you want.

    This doesn't mean you abandon formal solemn celebration. Probably what would help would be to phase into these things. If there's a beloved tradition that's a bit rowdier or schmaltzier than what Father wants in the church, you do it in the gym or the school or marching around the parking lot, and then you process over to church for something more formal and solemn, and then you process out again for more exuberant stuff. Give all the people a reason to think this is a good plan. Don't fight something Catholic; use it. (Nobody gets excited around here to go to church on any saints' days, not even St. Patrick's. You guys are SO LUCKY.)

    It's like planning a concert set. You don't just throw songs in at random. You think about the tone you're setting, and how you want things to progress in terms of more high energy or more thoughtful pieces. If you do it right, the solemn formal things that you do in church (and/or at Mass) will be just as "exciting" or "culturally meaningful" or "welcoming" as the stuff outside church or before Mass. People can be deeply moved, even in the middle of a rock concert, by something simple and beautiful. Goodness knows that church is a better atmosphere for solemnity than a sports arena with giant speakers! It's not pandering to put some thought into arranging this stuff.

    It wouldn't kill anybody to have Mananitas as Morning Prayer before the first Mass, whenever Dec. 12 falls on Sunday. If you've got pre-Mass Rosary people, they'll probably be all for it. Or you could have post-Mass festivities, particularly after the last Mass on Sunday. Have special stuff at coffee and donuts, maybe. None of this takes away from Gaudete Sunday in the slightest. On the 2nd Sunday, maybe it's a little more solemn, but it still won't kill you to have added stuff. I realize that it goes against the usual mores of racing out of the parking lot, but I think it could work.

    Just some thoughts....
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    However, Maureen, I think that we need to put things in their proper perspective. Advent is Advent. Inasmuch as St. John the Baptist and the Blessed Virgin Mary are two of the main personages of Advent, we need to remember that this holy season is penitential. It's not that we are being minimalist; however, at least down here, OLG is much more full-blown than even Christmas.

    As for the dichotomy between December 8th and December 12th, it was not I who made the statement; a priest made that point during a homily.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    Then he was wrong! :) Seriously, though, it's kind of against the "both-and" nature of Catholicism to pit Our Lady's titles against each other. I'm sure it was a matter of frustration; but St. Patrick's Day isn't a Holy Day of Obligation in Boston, either.

    Well, like I added in my perpetual editing of posts... there's nothing wrong with having stuff before and after Mass for OLG. If you've got early early morning and all afternoon on Sunday to do stuff for Our Lady, there's a lot more scope.

    Now, granted, some people have extremely tight work schedules even on Sunday, so I can see where some people wouldn't be helped by this. But knowing something's available even if you can't go, is better than not being able to do stuff at all. (And if you were using various days between Dec. 8 and Dec. 12, you'd allow those people to have more chances to find time in their schedule for Marian devotion.)

    Both feasts of Our Lady are already part of the Advent season, every year. That's not a problem. That's Our Lord helping us celebrate Advent more fully. It's not a bad thing to have more people in church on their knees at Advent time. If there's a problem, it's a refocusing problem, not a "ban Marian stuff" problem.
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Maureen, I never said anything about banning. What I am saying is that we should put these celebrations into their proper perspective. The USCCB, for better or for worse, did specifically state that when December 12th falls on a Sunday, Gaudete Sunday takes precedence. We are given the option of having OLG celebrations either on December 11th or December 13th. The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of the OLG festivities tend to turn into cultural celebrations, as opposed to something that should be truly sacred and liturgical in nature. I do not see folks making such a big fuss when the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is moved to Monday, December 9th when December 8th falls on a Sunday.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy
    2001-dec-17
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html

    All of the document is useful.
    Paragraphs 94 and following look at the Liturgical Year and popular piety.
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