Latin Syllabification • Syllables in Latin • Let's pool our resources
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    It is often necessary for us to break Latin words into syllables.
    I've gotten better over the years, but I think if we could please all pool our resources, my life would be easier.

    Some common ones I've discovered:

    "stris" (like in nostris) --- not "nos-tris"

    "gno" (like in agno) --- not "ag-no"

    "cto" (like in sancto) --- not "sanc-to"

    "mnes" (like in omnes) --- not "om-nes"

    "sic-ut" --- not "si-cut"

    de-dí-sti --- not de-dís-ti

    re-ctae --- not rec-tae

    "ex-ér-ci-tus" --- not "e-xer-ci-tus"


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    Keywords: Latin syllables, Latin syllabification, Lingua Latina syllabify, Latin word breakup, breaking up words in Latin.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    My take, JMO. Realizing this is a IPA can o worms considering the dialectical idiosyncracies.

    "stris" (like in nostris) --- not "nos-tris" Agree: NAW-strees

    "gno" (like in agno) --- not "ag-no" Agree: AH-nyaw (oh)

    "cto" (like in sancto) --- not "sanc-to" SAHN-ktaw (oh)

    "mnes" (like in omnes) --- not "om-nes" modified allision, agreed: AWM (voiced vowel)-nes (m-n, both voiced)

    "sic-ut" --- not "si-cut" disagree SEE-koot

    "ex-ér-ci-tus" --- not "e-xer-ci-tus" modified agreed: EGZ-ehr-chee-toos

    As an aside, I'm helping our local community chorus with Rutter's MAGNIFICAT. (I'm not the director.) There are some really passive aggressive sopranos, despite Rutter's clearly edited "Ma- gni- fi- cat" who must love to annoy everyone by belting out Maggggggg (gutteral g) nih-fih-cot. Arggggh.
    I'm going to conduct them and two of our church choirs in the spring for Mozart REQUIEM. They won't get away with that nonsense next year. BWAH ha ha ha ha haaaaa.....
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I've often wondered about the rules for this. When writing music in English, one is to "syllabify" (i.e. break up the words, when necessary, with dashed) according to a standard dictionary. There has to be an actual source for this that Solesmes uses for Latin - it can't be arbitrary.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I should clarify: here I am only talking about things that are necessary for the typesetter to know.

    English is SO EASY thanks to: http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    But save us from those dreaded Fred Waring phonetic spellings, we beseech Thee, O Lord. (Wee BUH-seech Thee, AOw Lawd.)
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I love the Mozart Requiem. A true masterpiece.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Yes, exactly - we're talking about typesetting rules, not diction rules. Whether and to what extent they should be the same, is another debate - which is something we have no control over - so no point arguing about it.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    JMO/Skrpr- In the immortal words of Roseanne Roseannadana, "Oh, ........nevermind."
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Charles, I feel like asking you if you feel phonetic spellings do more harm than good, but I guess I should (technically) start another post to do so...
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I guess I should (technically) start another post to do so...


    lol
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    English is SO EASY thanks to: http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/

    And...bookmarked. Thanks, Jeff!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Jeff, I feel like I like remaining an enigma, a connundrum, incorrigible yet incorrupTIble mystery wrapped in a riddle and a fortune cookie with a dead fish.
    Is it any wonder, all things being equitable, that my elusive nature is my sanctuary, the tabernacle that best represents my covetousness in matters concerning "me, myself and Irene," and to which many ubiquitous testimonies have been misattributed to my nature fallaciously, as if I were a misanthrope bereft of any intellectual impulse other than to know where to scratch what itches.

    Did I win any prize? Should I run for governor in my state?




    Oh, I just happened upon an article in an old 1933 magazine in which Edgar Cayce answered "No" to both those questions. Nevermind.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Whew....I'm glad none of those words are at the end of a phrase, Charles...as you've no doubt noticed, they all have the accent on the 1st syllable, followed by three unaccented syllables. I find this very hard to set (in Psalmody) in a satisfying way.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I find this very hard to set (in Psalmody) in a satisfying way.


    I don't disagree that it comes out different from Latin. But rather than complain that English is not Latin, do the following for the most possible pleasing result with an unaltered Gregorian psalmtone:

    1) Assume shadow accents are equal to true accents.
    2) Now, you will have no more than two unaccented syllables in a row. Follow the rules for setting the text as if it were Latin.
    3) Remove assumption that shadow accents are equal to true accents, and sing accordingly.

    The result usually sounds passable to me, but you mustn't leave out any of the steps (especially #3).
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    My new favorite Latin word is:

    usquequáque
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    That is a delightful word. "architriclino" is pretty good too. Perhaps it would be fun to find the antiphons distinguished by the presence of words that appear only once in the repertoire.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Perhaps it would be fun to find the antiphons distinguished by the presence of words that appear only once in the repertoire.


    I smell a dissertation topic for someone.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    The term for this kind of thing is fun to toss around: "hapax legomenon" come from Greek for "said only once".
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Some of the syllabification issues you brought up, Jeff, have to do with precise choral execution, not with malicious editing. Utilizing the stopped 'm' as part of syllable 1, e.g., allows a clear '-nes' to be voiced. See, e.g., the "omnes generationes" of the JSB Magnificat.

    As Charles mentioned, singers occasionally need to be ........ahhh.......harnessed, and allowing 30 or 150 slightly different dwellings on the "m" can really screw up a director's day.
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