Can the "winning" NPM New Mass setting be sung at the Vatican?
  • I really want to know.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,673
    Define the following words:

    "at the Vatican"

    I mean, yes, certainly it is physically possible for one to sing the "winning" NPM New Mass setting just about anywhere. Whether or not it would be welcomed would be a different story, but there's no physical impediment for you singing it in your shower, at the park, or at the Vatican.

    Where do you mean "at the Vatican"? Do you mean at a Mass? Or do you just mean is it possible for those words to leave your mouth once you've entered Vatican City? I'm fairly certain you might get some "weirdo" looks if you walk through St. Peter's Square belting it out... Would they let you use it during a Mass? I'm pretty sure there were some guidelines posted on their website for visiting choirs a while back - you'd want to look into those.

    But yes, I believe it is physically possible that the "winning" NPM New Mass setting CAN be sung "AT THE VATICAN."
  • As a guest choir at Mass in the Vatican. I had recalled guidelines but cannot find them. If this is disallowed, then why are the same criteria not applied to parish churches?

    1. The Musical Chapel of the Papal Basilica of St. Peter is happy to welcome ‘guest’
    choirs who wish to animate the Liturgy. They must demonstrate their suitability and
    be able to guarantee a quality of song that is worthy of it surroundings.

    2. The Musical Chapel of St. Peter’s Basilica follows the norms of the Magisterium of
    the Church regarding liturgical song, and especially the Chirograph of John Paul II
    and the latest pronouncements of Benedict XVI in the matter of liturgical music.

    3. The liturgy is celebrated in the Latin language, according to the Roman Rite. Gregorian
    chant has first place. The guest choir is expected to chant the Ordinary of Holy Mass
    in alternation with the Musical Chapel of the Basilica.

    4. As a general norm, the chants from the Ordinary to be executed are:
    Sundays of Advent: Missa XVII Credo IV
    Sundays of Christmas: Missa IX Credo IV
    Sundays of Lent: Missa XVII Credo IV
    Sundays of Easter: Missa I Credo III
    Sundays of Ordinary Time: Missa XI Credo I
    Feasts of Ordinary Time: Missa VIII Credo III
    Feasts of the B.V. Mary: Missa IX Credo IV
    Feasts of the Apostles: Missa IV Credo III

    5. The guest choir may sing:
    - at the Entrance procession until the moment when the celebrant reaches the altar.
    The Gregorian Introit is sung by the Musical Chapel of the Basilica.
    - at the preparation of the gifts and relative offertory,
    - at Communion, after the Gregorian antiphon has been sung,
    - at the end of Mass, after the Blessing.
    The program of music must follow the Liturgy of the day and will be agreed upon
    with and approved by the Choirmaster.

    6. Singing in St. Peter’s is a stupendous prospect: all those who wish to do so may apply
    to the Chapel Prefect, in full freedom, without restrictions on the part of any
    organization, travel agency, or other. The application, which will be vetted by the
    Choirmaster, is to be sent if possible along with some recordings useful for verifying
    the qualifications of the choir and with a proposal of songs for the liturgy in which
    the choir is requesting to participate.

    7. Participation in the Capitular Mass is free of charge. Nonetheless, the Chapter of St.
    Peter’s Basilica accepts with gratitude the free offerings of guest choirs who wish to
    participate in maintaining quality liturgical service in the Basilica. An official receipt
    will be issued.

    These norms were approved by the Most Reverend Archpriest of the Papal Basilica of Saint Peter in an
    audience of 17 December 2006 and he has mandated their publication.
    Msgr. Tarcisio Cola
    Canon of St. Peter’s
  • image

    Prominently posted outside your church and on your church website?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    But then, how about those musicians who come to 'glorify God" with guitars, drumms, tambourines... ? Isn't it heartless and uncharitable thing to do to share with them the info. on the Church's norms and instructions?
  • They just need their own signs:

  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I think a workshop or a training session would be very helpful for parish musicians where they can get together to share the goal of the parish music program (especially if the director and the pastor plan to do ‘brick by brick.’), learn about Church’s instructions and the liturgy more deeply. ( There are many parish musicians don’t even know what Propers and Ordinaries are. I was one of them.) The music director can talk about something like starting the Simple English Propers... This can also be a good chance for everyone to learn basic chant notation (although it will be an ongoing practice throughout the year.). There are many things you can do in the session, according to the need of the parish. It seems that all other people who want to serve for the Mass get formally trained, except for musicians. As far as I know, after musicians are recruited, in most parishes, they just come to rehearsals and sing. Although musicians may get trained musically during rehearsals, usually there aren’t enough time to discuss other things than just practicing the music for the week. I think the proper training and instruction can guide the good intention of those musicians who come to glorify God to be more fruitful.
  • Yes - and we could offer open workshops in each diocese that we live in as well.

    A monthly email newsletter to musicians in a diocese can be helpful, however, I've found it is almost impossible to get parishes to cooperate in sharing info about who works there, as far as musical staff.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,777
    ahhh... thank you St. Cecilia (on this your feast day) as the requirement for singing in St. Peter's is now that you should be able to sing the Latin rite in....

    ..... LATIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Forever Live the Dead Language!

    ... and may God Bless and Keep the POPE!
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    November 22 is also the anniversay of St. Pius X Motu Proprio.
    The Church and the Holy Fathers have been safeguarding the place of Gregorian chant in Latin rite, and the recent Popes have emphasized it more than ever.

    St. Cecilia, pray for us.

    "We remember Pope Saint Pius X especially for his famous Motu Proprio of November 22, 1903 on the reform of Sacred Music and the restoration of the Church’s plainchant. Like Pope Benedict XVI today, Pope Pius X was a musician; he was above all concerned that the faithful of the Catholic Church might pray in beauty. He recognized in Gregorian Chant the native idiom of the Roman liturgy. Gregorian chant shines with an evangelical poverty. It is chaste in its expression. It is entirely obedient to the Word of God that it clothes, carries, and delivers.


    Both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have reiterated his insistence on the primacy of Gregorian Chant and the value of the traditional Roman polyphony in the liturgy of the Church. On November 22, 2003, the anniversary of Pius X’s Motu Proprio, Pope John Paul II said, “With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the general rule that St Pius X formulated in these words: 'The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.’” On June 24, 2006, Pope Benedict XVI spoke in similar terms: “An authentic renewal of sacred music can only happen in the wake of the great tradition of the past, of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony.”

    (Above was posted on the feast day of St. Pius X in Fr. Kirby's blog,
  • Why is the church permitting the existence of publishing houses that do not support the church in their product offerings?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,423

    1. The Church cannot stop an independent publisher from doing whatever they want.
    2. The "We choose not to" sign would be in the Papyrus font.
  • FNJ,
    What font did you use for the "bad church" sign?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    'bad church"? I thought it supposed to be a 'friendly church' who choose to have a 'friendly Mass,' rather than Holy Mass.
    (Noel, I liked the font myself. It looks a bit too elegant for it, but more frinedly than the other one. :-)
  • Mia, that's American English code.
    For example, "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?" from THE WIZARD OF OZ can be a cryptic way of sizing something or someone up in shorthand.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,777

    A witch is a witch is a witch

    Don't be taken by the wizard!
  • ArtemisiaEF Font
  • 1. The Church cannot stop an independent publisher from doing whatever they want.

    They can refuse to provide Imprimatur & put out public notice to stay away - as they do with movies.

    2. The "We choose not to" sign would be in the Papyrus font.