Why Four English Hymns at TLM Masses?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Why are the four English hymns that are endemic to the OF Mass showing up at the EF Mass?

    We are all dealing with compromises as we explore finding the best way to provide music appropriate for the Sacrifice of the Mass. And it seems obvious that those who have chosen the pure and simple EF should have the easiest time eliminating the FEH's from the Mass.

    So why are they still being sung? The first time I walked through the church building and heard the TLM singers rehearsing English hymns....I was floored. Absolutely floored.

    noel at sjnmusic.com
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Wow, first I've heard of this. Talk about a trend to drive the traddies nuts.
  • WGS
    Posts: 297
    I think you're missing the point. The four-hymn approach was designed for the Traditional Latin Mass. I don't have the date of the legislation in front of me, but I'd guess it came in the middle nineteen fifties along with the Dialogue Mass. The silly part is that people applied that format to the Novus Ordo Masses where there was a defined hierarchy of numerous opportunities for singing.

    I'm not recommending the four-hymn format, but it certainly can be justified liturgically for the EF and not for the OF.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    WGS,

    You are absolutely correct, having played Praise to the Lord, Sons of God...some communion hymn and To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King more times than....well....but this was post 1960. Wonder where the doc is on this?

    noel at sjnmusic.com
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    But English? Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    People's Hymnal was THE book, no guitars nor any hint of them, just a legal use of what was very common at various times in church history. The Schubert Deutsche Messe was sung in German during the Mass...but though the movements have Ordinary of the Mass names, the texts were not. These movements were played and sung during the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei....Low Masses with music.

    That was slapped down, but popped up again in the early 1900's, to be outlawed yet again.

    noel at sjnmusic.com
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    This was a permissible arrangement for low Masses in the USA (I don't know about elsewhere) before Vatican II. And for many, during the dark years of limited access to the EF, it continued as a norm and as a fond memory of the "good old days." Only three weeks ago, I listened to "Jesus, Jesus, Come to Me" and "O Lord, I Am Not Worthy" at an EF. I thought of weeping, but then I reminded myself that better times will come (and have already come in many places). The problem with the four hymn sandwich is not only the omission of any semblance of sung propers, but that it appears to be devoted to the worst of 19th-20th century sentimental hymnody. My Palm Sunday experience alternated between dead silence and the hymns. Every time I grew tired of the silence, then I dreaded the singing. And now the whole universe knows how unrecollected a musician can be in the pew.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Come on, now. It's not that bad - depending on the hymn chosen. One would probably call it a "compromise", but it IS music that CAN enhance the celebration of and attendance at Mass. It has been around for at least a century. Look at the recently posted "Westminster Hymnal": http://www.archive.org/details/westminsterhymna00londuoft

    Even with the congregation participating in much of the dialog of the Mass, there were still parts where the were not involved. Some music to sing did help. Not everyone sang, and that was OK. This was before the liturgistas started standing up in front of everyone, glaring at them to make them sing, or else!

    The EF High Mass IS the sung Mass. When it is sung, it must ALL be sung, not just the convenient parts. And it is to be sung in Latin, whether all Gregorian chant or not. Yes, some local customs prevailed, but not in the USA. If there was an entrance "procession", one that ended at the gates to the Sanctuary, it could be in the vernacular. But at the Priest's entrance into the Sanctuary, the Introit is to be sung/chanted - in Latin. And, of course, the recessional hymn is totally after the actual Mass is over and done with, so it can be in the vernacular also. So, this is the singing OF the Mass.

    OTOH, if the Priest is reciting Mass, with or without the congregation participating in the dialog, ANY music performed is merely music AT the Mass. There is also a key difference here in that any such music is NOT to impede the priest saying the Mass. When the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar are finished - the opening hymn must end. The Offertory hymn must end by the time the priest say aloud "... per omnia saecula saiculorum" at the conclusion of the Secret. Music must also cease after the ablutions when he is ready to recite the Communion Verse and Postcommunion. Now, given those constraints, it IS possible to program hymns that are the right length, that bring out the Readings of the Mass, that emphasize the season, and that accompany the actions at the Offertory and/or Communion. After all, there are literally thousands of hymns from which to choose, and at least one thousand of them are from purely Catholic sources.

    It is only within the context of the OF Mass that one can pick and choose how much of the "music of the Mass" will be sung, and how much not; and even how much will be sung under the category of "music at the Mass". These options do not exist in the EF Mass rubrics.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Steve...

    I am referring directly to TLM Sung Masses that include Vernacular Hymns....your point is well taken though about spoken Mass.

    noel at sjnmusic.com
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Yes. That is what I provide the best hymnody I can find for 2 TLMs, in 2 different venues, every week. We also celebrate some special days throughout the year. And only occasionally have a High Mass. The 4-hymn dialog Mass is our staple. I often do some chant by myself (with organ accompaniment) and some of our hymnody is in Latin. We're simply not in a position to have frequent High Masses yet. My latest TLM commitment has been only since the Sumorum pontificum and has grown to about 25 regulars, which is pushing the limits on the little chapel we're using. My other commitment has been on a weekly basis for 5 years now, and we average well over 100 regulars there. This church also has a spoken TLM on First Fridays without organ music.

    I would be more in agreement that, in the contemporary OF Mass, there is no reason to only sing 4 hymns. The rubrics there allow for some parts of the Ordinary and/or Propers to be sung without mandating that they all be sung every time. I the Ecclasia Dei Commission would have the authority to modify the 1962 rubrics to allow for partly High Masses, I would be one of the first jump in with both feet! (Figuratively, since I rarely use the pedals when accompanying chant!)
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,032
    "I am referring directly to TLM Sung Masses that include Vernacular Hymns....your point is well taken though about spoken Mass."

    I'm a little confused. Vernacular hymns are not allowed during a sung TLM (except at opening and closing, in which case they are actually being sung before and after, not during, the mass itself - as Steve explained. Also, an exception can be made for "immemorial custom", which I would think would hardly apply in the US.) So you're asking how this can be tolerated? Or perhaps I misunderstand you?

    Here are the relevant sections from De Musica sacra, issued by the Sacred Congregation of Rites in 1958:


    14. a) In sung Masses only Latin is to be used. This applies not only to the celebrant, and his ministers, but also to the choir or congregation.

    "However, popular vernacular hymns may be sung at the solemn Eucharistic Sacrifice (sung Masses), after the liturgical texts have been sung in Latin, in those places where such a centenary or immemorial custom has obtained. Local ordinaries may permit the continuation of this custom 'if they judge that it cannot prudently be discontinued because of the circumstances of the locality or the people' (cf. canon 5)" (Pius XII, Encyclical Musicæ sacræ disciplina, 47).

    b) At low Mass the faithful who participate directly in the liturgical ceremonies with the celebrant by reciting aloud the parts of the Mass which belong to them must, along with the priest and his server, use Latin exclusively.

    But if, in addition to this direct participation in the liturgy, the faithful wish to add some prayers or popular hymns, according to local custom, these may be recited or sung in the vernacular.

    . . . .

    33. The faithful may sing hymns during low Mass, if they are appropriate to the various parts of the mass.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,032
    The previous post should be signed:

    Sam Schmitt
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    The Society of St John Cantius has guidelines for music at low Mass in Q&A format:

    http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/music/musical-guidelines-for-the-traditional-roman-rite/liturgical-services-music-for-low-mass.html

    They also have guidelines for High Mass.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I think the implicit question is, why not just do the OF? When the four hymn format came about there was no other option. Now there is. Do the OF in Latin. Or do it in English. Sing all the hymns you want, or better - don't. Sing the propers. Sing the ordinary. But why take the EF which is currently a valid form of the rite, and send it back to 1960 by singing HGWPTN every week. That's what I don't get.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    To 'incantu's' the implicit question "Why not just do the OF?" I think the answer is there's a lot more to the TLM than just the music. For instance, there was a recent comment on another thread here on Musica Sacra asking when the words of the consecration were changed (sometime between 1962 and 1969).

    The original post from 'frogmusic' starting off this thread recounted some folks practicing English hymns for the TLM. I wonder what answer they would give? Personally, I devote my efforts to the Gregorian propers and ordinaries for Missa cantata. For low Mass, I'd stick to Latin within the Mass (eg, Offertory & Communion).
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Take that back, no there's not. ;)

    I'm just not sure B16 had "O God Almighty Father" (a good German tune, at that) in mind as part of his "authentic reform" of sacred music when he expanded the use of the EF.

    And why the quotes around my name? As if to say "if that's your REAL name"?
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    We only sing "HGWPTN" once or twice a year. There is nothing that turns me off more to the EF Low Mass than the 1 dozen limitation to Catholic traditional hymnody. There are thousands of good Catholic hymns to choose 50 to 100 "favorites" from, and I agree that many of them should be in Latin.

    If you have, on a regular basis:
    * a priest willing and capable of performing every sung part of a Missa Cantata
    * deacons (or fellow priests) willing and capable of performing every part of a Missa Solemnis
    * a shola capable of chanting every part of a High Mass, even if only to Psalm tones
    * a choir capable of the above and some polyphony
    * a congregation willing to do their part
    then consider yourself, and your parish, so very blessed! You have no reason to even consider the EF Low Mass with vernacular hymns.
    But please don't denigrate those who are not blessed with all of the above liturgical assets - at least yet.

    And if that's not the case, then at least be prepared to do the absolute most with hymnody.
  • Skitalets
    Posts: 25
    Steve Collins --

    A very good point.

    I would also mention that S. Clement's Church in Philadelphia, a nosebleed-high Episcopal Church where the traditional Mass is done very well and with meticulous care for the rubrics, uses hymns and congregational singing, even though it has probably the best paid schola in North America and does a different polyphonic Mass setting every Sunday.

    Even among super-high-church traditionalists, English hymns and congregational singing have value.
  • Skitalets
    Posts: 25
    The other thing I would point out is that while it's important to stress to people that "active participation" includes listening, following in a Missal, doing the physical gestures of liturgical ceremonial, etc., things like participation by speaking and singing (including singing in one's vernacular language) should not be denigrated.

    Personally, the most meaningful Masses I've ever been to or celebrated (including Anglican, RC, and Old Catholic) have been ones where the ordinary chants were straight out of the Kyriale and sung by the congregation, where the congregation was intimately familiar with the ceremonial, including genuflecting at the "et incarnatus est" and kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer, and where there were opportunities both to participate silently by watching and witnessing and listening to the Latin propers *and* by singing English hymns and speaking responses.

    It seems to me that a mix of all the best of this -- silence and speaking, listening and singing, the best of Latin chant/hymnody and English chant/hymnody -- is a really beautiful thing when done right.
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