Folk Group at new church
  • I just accepted a position as a Coordinator of Music Ministries at a small parish. The pastor is very interested in chant and has voiced his belief that the music during mass needs to be altered to conform more with the wishes of BXVI and Rome. I am in total agreeance. He has even instituted the singing of the Communion Antiphon and is very interested in beginning the Propers in some fashion.

    The church has a nice little choir and I believe they are open to these changes. However, there is a small group in the choir that forms an "ensemble" that performs once a month at mass. This is a group of four people...three guitars and one bass guitar. They play Haugen and other songs in the same style and only want a piano as an embelishment to their guitars.

    What is the best approach to begin "converting" this group over to more traditional forms of music and get them to accept my wishes for the music program without offending them and having them leave the choir? The prior music coordinator was there for over 20 years and was very loose with her ensembles and allowed questionable practices. I don't want to be the big bad new director who is trying to create emenies.

    Has anyone else experienced this problem, and what have you done to slowly move away from this kind of polarization?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I've had some success with choosing more classic hymns, mixing in some of the best new music (Schiavone, for example).

    Guitarists can either finger pick or double-time strum.

    Adding solo instruments can elevate the tone as well.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    Chant Cafe had a book on traditional Catholic music and even chant guitar accompaniments, didn't it? And though it seemed aimed at classical guitarists, I seem to remember there were some chords and a lot of good explanatory info, if I remember correctly.
  • If you anticipate resistance you might consider having your pastor attend one of your choir rehearsals and you and he could outline with the choir (without necessarily pointing any individuals out) the direction in which you and he wish the parish to move - and why. This makes your choir conscious participants in a 'mission'. Your people should, of course, respect the direction of your leadership; but, there is a certain magic when people know with certitude that this or that is what the pastor definitely wants. You are very fortunate to have him.
  • The only way to effectively eliminate the bad music is to give it its own place of honor.

    Rather than banning it, I made it clear that it can have a place in devotions so I encouraged everyone who played it and likes it to meet on Sunday afternoons for a weekly devotion with this music given pride of place. Solved the problem - it is, of course, totally inappropriate at Mass. How'd it solve the problem? They liked playing at Mass since they were coming anyhow. No one, including people in the pews, had any interest in making a special trip in for it.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    FNJ's solution is the evil version of what I'd like to see:
    That is, I'd like to see what he encouraged actually happen.

    Regardless of stylistic appropriateness at Mass, it's a bad idea to even attempt to stuff the full breadth of Christian musics into one service each Sunday morning. There's all sorts of good reasons why Catholics (and Protestants) should come together outside of Mass to sing songs of any style that moves them, in praise and adoration of God. It's a good thing in and of itself. And to the extent that it mollifies people's needs to play/sing/hear certain types of music, it's a good thing for music at Liturgy.

    As to the original poster:
    I would make a gradual change toward the ideal.
    But not a "eventually we'll deal with it" sort of Gradual. Make a plan.
    Introduce one piece of the puzzle (a chanted Agnus Dei, a polyphonic Offertory) at beginning of each big season (Advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter). It'll take a couple years, but I think that's the way to go.
    OTOH:
    You have a particular problem, which is that the folk band plays at a special mass once a month. This is problematic, because anything you are introducing as the new normal is still pre-empted by "this is the special mass." Perhaps the way to do that is (GULP!) invite them to play at Mass every week. Incorporate them into normal, so that you can change normal without dealing with an outlier.
  • Evil? This is what the church did for centuries. Devotions with music that was not always acceptable at Mass.

    Devotion to the Holy Name
    Devotion to the Child Jesus
    Devotion to the Holy Face
    Devotion to the Five Wounds
    Devotion to the Divine Mercy
    Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
    Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Mother Dear, O Pray for Me was NEVER sung at Mass.
  • However, there is a small group in the choir that forms an "ensemble" that performs once a month at mass. This is a group of four people...three guitars and one bass guitar. They play Haugen and other songs in the same style and only want a piano as an embellishment (sic) to their guitars.
    What is the best approach to begin "converting" this group over to more traditional forms of music and get them to accept my wishes for the music program without offending them and having them leave the choir? The prior music coordinator was there for over 20 years and was very loose with her ensembles and allowed questionable practices. I don't want to be the big bad new director who is trying to create emenies.
    Has anyone else experienced this problem, and what have you done to slowly move away from this kind of polarization?
    Could you provide some additional information? Some questions will follow this response.

    I would suggest that the notion of “conversion” is a misnomer. People do “convert” by persuasion or coercion, but mostly people “evolve” as they survive and/or thrive. I also would ask whether you mean to accept your influence and leadership by your credentials as the “coordinator,” or by your taking the time to integrate (take it or leave it, you are now part of the “body” that is your parish and its ministerial groups) your talents as musician, leader and liturgical resource? Two things indicate that your influence might be welcomed, your skills as a keyboardist, and that the pastor supports and shares your “vision.” Whatever you’ve heard inferred about the previous coordinator’s legacy remains a moot point; you are simply on track if you really want not to emerge onto the scene like Moses with some smokin’ new commandments. First of all, you’ll need to remember that these four people likely regard themselves as just as much family, or fellow travelers than just a long-lived ensemble. Whether their musical chops are decent, great, static or insufficient is irrelevant to what your job is: you’re called to help them evolve in their skills of choosing, preparing, leading and performing worship music that is in concert with the mind and laws of the Church, and to lives as prayerful and faithful Christians. So, are you prepared to greet and meet them at their level, and then offer your skills to augment their modalities successfully, and gain their trust, respect and interest in your influence?

    Questions:
    *Has either the former coordinator or the leader of the ensemble kept a decent catalog of their “Orders of Music” for whatever number of years? You must have a much more thorough knowledge of their repertoire choices for Ordinaries, Psalters and (presumably) songs/hymns that have comprised the majority and preferences of that repertoire. Typifying this aspect as “Haugen” isn’t beneficial. You might find that certain pieces performed regularly are musically, liturgically and textually a cut above, and be able to show them appreciation for those choices with some sort of “attaboy.”
    *If there are no such records easily accessible, make the time to meet with the ensemble (leader) and do a thorough inventory of what they have “in stock” based upon the hymnal or worship aide that is used.
    *What is that primary music source? GIA Ritualsong, Gather; OCP MI/BB?.....
    *Informally assess if they’ve ever ventured, as Kathy suggested, beyond the genre of the sacropop song? Have they interpreted hymns, or even chants with their plucked/strummed guitars and bass?
    *Are they first and foremost, competent and capable vocalists and leaders of the sung text? Do they work on basic skills of blend, balance, good tessitura choices for the congregations they lead, etc. Do they insure that the melody voice is pre-eminently necessary without being over bearing? Do they obscure the melody by an inclination towards incessant harmonization or vocal improvisation?
    *Are their performance skills relatively similar? Do they all strum? Do they arpeggiate either with flat picks or finger picking? Do they obviously demonstrate that notated chord inversions are observed, if not understood? Does the bass player also understand that such note movement is important towards the artful rendition of such songs; a.k.a. not always playing the root of a given chord? Do the guitarists prepare each song with a variety of interpretive methods: transposition via capoing that adds to the sonorities that support the song melody in wider registers?
    *Have they demonstrated interest in expanding their repertoire and modalities, even if only for their own benefit, if not the parish’s?
    *Can they read new material off the page, or are they dependent upon recordings?
    *Have they attended any skills improvement events sponsored by their diocese or NPM or such?

    These sorts of “information gathering” tasks might provide this group and other musicians the notion that you don’t regard “them,” prima facie</>, as a “problem” but an opportunity. Polarization is a problem, but not a normal state of being. It is a human reaction to conflict between intractable parties. There is nothing inherently wrong with allotting sufficient time to the task called “getting to know you, getting to know ALL about you.” And that works two ways.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I called it the evil version because my perception of your intention was that you assumed moving it outside of Mass would kill it, rather than letting it flourish in it's own space. I expect though, that either one would be fine with you, as long as it's not at Mass.
  • It just makes sense to transplant it to a place where it belongs rather than to kill it off and alienate the musicians. These people are prime candidates to become advocates of chant since they are already committed to being musicians.
  • These people are prime candidates to become advocates of chant since they are already committed to being musicians.


    Except in cases where they already don't like chant and make fun of it - even going as far to say they'll start a new religion across the street if "the Pope makes them do it". "It" being "Gregorian chant", that is.
  • I'll argue that point - the people who will go out of their way to be violently against it are also people who can swing over and become RABID proponents. It's the pushy cantor and the guy in the three piece suit in the choir who frowns a lot that you have to overcome, not these people!
  • Why is it that whenever someone new comes here, asks for practical help involving real people. the "discussion" always migrates into Pythonesque "arguments, contradictions, polemics..." and the like?
    FNJ, your solution is elegant. But it would accomplish the very result that WMWilson expressly wanted to avoid-making enemies- namely disguising their dismissal from Mass duties to those of a presumably newly created devotion event.
    I'm sure that basic human nature would ensure they'd be eager to be ostracized. Christ's parable said the shepherd went out of the gate to find the one lost sheep and bring it back to the fold, not to show the errant sheep the door...
  • I'm no fan of the folk group, myself, but by the OP's own admission, they sing once a month at Mass. Most parishes dream of having problems like this.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Noel suggested nothing about chasing anyone from attending Mass. If you are going to 'perform' (carry out one's duty in public) a special role in Mass besides being in the pew, such as singing in choir, altar servers, extraordinary ministers, lectors, and so on...there are Church's instructions to follow. Why only the choir members are not instructed and trained properly as others? Is singing as a choir a serious matter in Mass? Is having a good intention good enough to proclaim God's Word in Mass? I believe true charity can be shown by the wise music director and priest by instructing them properly and inform what the Church desires and help them understand the place of Gregorian chant in the liturgy. Some people just don't know until someone tells them. When I was in music ministry last 10 years in our parish no one told me about the Church's instructions or show documents. I would have known better than playing 'pretty' tunes on the piano at the Mass. ( lots of compliments from people made it worse.) There's no true charity unless truths are spoken, and unity is achieved through charity rooted in truths. (Of course I'm far from being perfect, but this is what I believe.)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm failing to see why anything needs to be done. Here's what I would do: the one Mass a month, I'd go get a bagel, read the newspaper, and think "gee, I'm sure glad I have one fewer Mass this weekend!"
  • "Why is it that whenever someone new comes here, asks for practical help involving real people. the "discussion" always migrates into Pythonesque "arguments, contradictions, polemics..." and the like?"

    Because many of us think that possibly with this new person, we can make a difference.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Of course, one place to start in such a situation is to have the presider chant the presidential chants and the people respond with plainsong dialogs; also, any parts of the ordinary that have not typically been sung. Those areas have typically been left free from contempo-izing; start there.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Because many of us think that possibly with this new person, we can make a difference.

    It seemed to me, Noel, that this new person already is on board with the paradigm. What he asked for was strategic advice. You provided him yours, I mine, Liam his (good call, btw.) I'm not sure that the soap box, generality-based approach in the blog bubble actually "makes a difference" when presented with specific problems. YMMV. Pax.
  • Years ago, my parish had two groups: one led by an organist and they sang old-time hymns. Another was led by a guitarist and they sang goofy 60s stuff. A new music person came in a forced both into a mixed-mainstream program, imposing some organ and some guitar on every Mass and otherwise mandating OCP middle-of-the-roadism. Guess what? Every single person left the music program. No one was left. After one year, the new director cantored every Mass with a pianist friend of hers.

    I saw the leader of the goofy group one night at a local restaurant. We talked and visited at length. It turned out, much to our astonishment, that we had tons in common. She wanted to serve the parish. So did I. She wanted real music that people could related to, not canned industrial publisher material. Same here. She wanted music that reflected the sensibilities of people, not something imposed from the outside. Same here. Also, she wanted humble, quiet, unassuming music that people could sing from their hearts. Same. We both found lots of common ground. But we were both out.

    I've thought about this so much in the intervening years. I wonder what might have happened if the new director had brought us together instead of driving us both away.

    By the way, the new director was gone in 3 years, leaving disaster in her wake.
  • Thank you all for the feedback. After reading all the responses and chatting with our pastor about this, I have a new understanding of the dynamics involved in the position. Although I was hired to improve the music program at the church and align it with the Church's expectations, the pastor and myself agree that this is going to be a slow improvement process. He does not what to create waves or cause disruption (which was my fear all along). With all of this in mind, I have changed the intent of the original post somewhat. I don't want to "convert" them or try to dissolve them. I need some practical advice on how to improve them so that they can become what the Church expects of anyone involved in music ministry: how can we offer the best we have for God?

    The guitarists at this point do not mesh well musically. Different strum patterns, vocally pitchy, etc. Should I start with some simple chants and have them single strum at the beginning of phrases? Employ a few extra vocalists from the other choir? Since I am responsible for this group as well as the traditional choir, my goal is to create consistency throughout the month between the various groups (trad choir, guitar ensemble, etc.). I am excited to see how I can improve the guitar group...I'm just not quite sure yet how to do it without coming across like I'm trying to change them or like I don't think they are good enough. Maybe the best suggestion is to give it a few weeks and observe...then start employing ways to improve? This is where I need the most practical advice. (P.S. the age dynamic may play a role in this as well...the ensemble is made up of retired people as well as 40-50+ people. I am 25.)

    Thank you all, again, for the feedback.
  • Dear WMWilson, welcome to the MSForum....
    I think the most important tactic you've already successfully employed is reaching a consensus and "plan" with your pastor. At 25, take it from a geezer pushing into his sixth decade in this vale of tears, that as Mick Jagger (you've heard of the Rolling Stones? The anti-Beatles?) once wailed, "Ti yi yi yime (time) is on my side, yes it is." Collaboration with your pastor/employer is paramount. All that well and fine....
    In your last paragraph, you give strong indication that the four folks of the ensemble haven't given much consideration to the concept that the act of singing well trumps all of the other stuff such as accompaniment, repertoire, styles and so forth. If you can gently persuade them that whatever alterations they could make towards improvement, none is more important than presenting to the PIPs at the ensemble Mass a solid, choral/vocal product before all else. And heck, that's what all the church legislation has specified for eras, to boot! If they can vocally unify by helping them sing a well done unaccompanied "Shepherd Me, O God," which shouldn't take them out of their comfort zone, then you have gotten them over a fairly major hurdle. And with practice and time, integrating those better unison choral skills should pay dividends in many areas, increased consciousness, competence and confidence with vocal and instrumental technique not the least among them. And it's a short hop from being able to sing in tune/blend/balance Bob Hurd's UBI CARITAS to the plainsong original.
    Rather than spend more time in this thread, I'll refer you to a series of articles over at our sister forum: The Chant Cafe. "Brick by brick" is a catch phrase for the strategy of evolving towards the chant paradigm via progressive solemnity. Let us know what you think, and how you're doing as you progress in the next months.
    Pax et bonum,
    C

    http://www.chantcafe.com/2010/07/how-i-go-about-choosing-bricks-part-one.html

    http://www.chantcafe.com/2010/07/choosing-bricks-part-second.html

    http://www.chantcafe.com/2010/07/choosing-bricks-part-last.html
  • Thanks, Mark.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You might have noticed that Adam Bartlett is producing simple antiphones in English. (also in chant cafe)

    http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=4236&page=1#Item_3

    (Also there are some comments on how this works in regular parishes.)

    You can help your choir to learn them and ask a special request to that small group, since they are good singers, to help out singing them, starting even just one or two by themselves when they are there besides other songs? In other months, the entire choir or men and women group can sing different antiphones so singing antiphones are consistent throughout the month. Maybe next year before the season starts, you can have music ministry workshop where you can present Church's instructions and pray together, while musicians and those who are intesterested in joining the music program have socialtime together?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Perhaps sing with them for a time? That could get you better ingratiated, so that at some point you can say "hey, let's try this and see how we like the sound."

    The other essential aspect is to build up a good relationship with the members and leadership. And not "smile to your face so I can stab you in the back", but an actual emotional investment in the people. Talk about music, buy them a round of beers, find common interests, pray together, etc. You have no right to tell them what to do until you have some actual consideration of their feelings beyond "I don't want to make people mad." Once you feel that you have a strong bond, you probably can make ONE change. So make it a good one. If they're singing an illicit setting of the ordinary, suggest another setting appropriate to their style and leave that fixed. If they sing unscriptural songs during the psalm, suggest they try a Guilmont psalm. Or, if they're not really doing anything "wrong", suggest they branch out their repertory with other music appropriate to their style but more in the direction of the rest of the Masses (have suggestions ready). The point is only ONE of those, and PROPOSE without enforcing. Just say "something to think about for next month.. talk it over, give it a try, I think you'll like it!" Then do nothing more for a year.

    Something else that I've seen help immensely is invite the better members on occasion to sing with your choir. Say, "hey, I could use another male part on this song for such and such Mass, how'd you like to give some chant a try?" Make it clear they're helping you.

    And, this occurs to me as most important: your pastor is behind you, and that's good. But make sure he understands you won't "fix" the folk Mass. Unless you're making some seriously good money, you probably won't be there long enough to where the folk Mass turns into an EF Solemn High Mass. You can make some progress, and hopefully get the folk group better integrated into the rest of the parish over 3 years or so. That's a reasonable goal. And I too am 25; there's a very fine line between letting them treat you like a grandchild and being a young whippersnapper. I find the generation in their 80s actually do respond well to shows of authority, but the 60s crowd needs massive ego stroking to pay attention.