• Could anyone assist me with the process of starting music programs for the pews? We have OCP currently, and our contract is up at the end of this year. We have done some hardbound comparisons, and as much as I like Adoremus and Worship, there are things missing. Also, if you have everything in one place (readings, psalms) it is more user friendly for the pip. Do you use 'one license' ? Other legalities? Computer program you use? Typical cost for a year? Hymn and chant sources? Text sources? Any other details?
    Thanks,
    Colleen
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Here's what we do at my little (~300 families) parish in the sort-city South.

    * Buy licenses from the big publishers. Do reporting with Pharisaic observance.

    * Use as much public-domain stuff as possible; when necessary, de-neuter the hymn texts. Cyberhymnal and the Oremus hymnal online are excellent resources for finding original texts for commonly used hymns.

    * We don't put the readings in the music bulletin because people are absolutely, physically dependent on the stupid pulp missalettes. So printing the readings in there would be a colossal waste of time, toner and paper.

    * I use PageMaker 7.0, but that's no longer being supported. I suggest if you don't already have PageMaker you should probably start with the newest version of InDesign (also from Adobe).

    * As far as the mechanics of getting the music into the bulletins, there are three ways to do it.
    1) X-acto knife + scanner.
    2) Download from online service like "One License" or "LicenSing.net" or similar. The ELCA (Lutheran) church has a service available where you can download the entire bulletin, all the graphics for the suggested hymns, and the whole shooting match.
    3) Finale (or other music notation program) + Adobe Acrobat + image editing software such as PhotoShop or Corel PaintShop Pro.

    Advantages and disadvantages: 1) seems easiest, but you will squander a lot of valuable practice/rehearsal/sleeping time trying to get the graphics straight. You can use an image editor to straighten them after the fact, but it's tedious. No matter what, you have to have the image editor to do the scanning and cropping.

    2) Is good, I suppose, but I don't like canned food, much less canned music programming. Also you get stuck with the publisher's typeface and stylistic/layout idiosyncracies.

    3) Is best IMHO because you can nudge stuff where you need it to go, fix the texts if they've been bowdlerized, and so on. You just enter the music, assign the lyrics, double-check the copyright notices (if any), and print it to Acrobat. Then you save the .pdf file as a JPEG, crop it in your image editor, and Hey Presto! You have a graphic for the program. This process may *sound* tedious, but it beats the heck out of 1) above because you never have to worry about straightening the image.

    I'll be happy to answer other questions if you have them. As to copyright issues, it's best to stick with as much PD stuff as you can. That makes things a lot simpler. This site has LOADS of excellent PD sources. And FWIW you can use the Selection Tool in Acrobat to save a single image from the 35MB Liber (or other large document).
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Sorry, forgot the cost factor. It's around $4,000 a year, but it's TOTALLY worth it. My organist/Associate MusDIr nearly had a panic attack when I told him Father wanted to get rid of them and use the OCP missalettes again.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    One thing people need to know: The CMAA is coming out with The Parish Book of Chant in a month or two (ok, maybe three). It has the complete ORDO for OF and EF, plus a nearly complete Kyriale, and about 60 chant hymns in Latin with English translations. Truly, with this and a book of Mass readings, the parish would be completely fixed up.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    By the way, on using our PDF files, you get a cleaner rendering when opening the PDF directly in photoshop or some other image editor. That producers better quality than using the graphics select tool on Adobe reader.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Just a quick note:

    LicenSing Online does not, to my knowledge, offer .pdf or other graphic versions of their materials. For OCP materials, you have to either do the old-fashioned cut-and-paste, scan it in, or enter it via Finale(tm) or some other notation publishing software and transfer it as a graphic. LicenSing is only a reprint permissions clearing house.

    The same is true of OneLicense.net. They don't offer the graphic files, so you must subscribe to another service connected with GIA called, "HymnPrint," which has it's own fee structures. The fees paid to HymnPrint do not cover copyrights. You must also have a subscription to the licensing service (OneLicense.net).

    A word of caution regarding HymnPrint and OneLicense.net: If you download a graphic from HymnPrint, check the copyright permission information carefully first.. DO NOT assume that because HymnPrint has it available, you're covered by your OneLicense.net agreement.

    We fell into this trap, and it cost us $150.00 in a one-time fee to Harper-Collins for use of a text that appeared in a hymn we downloaded from HymnPrint that was not covered by OneLicense. The tune was, the text was not.

    Frankly, there's enough traditional hymn tunes in the public domain and more than enough really solid hymn texts as well (Faber, et al) that one should be able to avoid paying out the high prices to these various licensing and graphics services.

    Once you get the hang of Finale(tm) or one of the other notation software packages, you can crank out stuff for use in worship booklets in fairly short order.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Not to be nitpicky, but OCP does have such a service, called "print 'n' praise" or some such. You have to pay to join up. So here's my take:

    Copyrighted materials were all written in the last roughly 100 years.

    That means that Christianity has had roughly 19 centuries before that to write good, solid hymns and so forth. Of those nineteen centuries, at least four have had a form of English that could be understood by today's PIP (maybe I'm giving too much credit here). George Herbert, anyone? How about Cardinal Newman?

    Thank God St Gregory took his dictation before Irving Berlin helped start up ASCAP!
  • Stella611
    Posts: 112
    Jeffrey,
    How much will the new Parish book of Chant cost?
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Thank you for the clarification, Yurodivi.

    I haven't used a subscription download service for the last year, and didn't know about OCP's new service.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Still working on prices on PBC. many issues here.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    I have been using Finale for all of the music that I include at Mass for years now. As a result, I have quite a large folder of music - traditional hymnody with traditional/original texts. I export a closely cropped graphic of the music as a TIF file at 600 DPI, and that inserts very nicely in MS Word or most any other word processor. If TIF isn't what you need, I also have a graphics program where I can convert TIF to BMP or just about anything one would want.

    Are you tired of getting the congregation through 2 or 3 verses, only to realize that the only verse that actually fits the theme AND ties all the Readings together is verse 4? Using Finale you can decide which verses to sing, and include only those. If you have a text that you really want to use, but the tune is one that nobody knows, then you can pick another tune and paste the verses into it.

    If you have tunes and texts that you want to use, I either have it already or I can create it in a matter of minutes. Even if you want something not in PD, if you'll deal with the copyright issues, and give me the license number, I can provide the same type of graphic with the permission included at the bottom.

    If enough people were interested, I would consider uploading them to my BLOG or even set up a web-site to share the files. Anyone interested, just email me.

    ISTM this is the direction many are going, and maybe we all need to. Hard cover hymnals are bound, but you are then bound to use only what is included in them. They are also very expensive. Missalettes are pretty ugly (especially after a few months' use) and really look cheap, even though they're not.
  • Thank you, everyone, for your assistance. Thankfully, Finale is not an issue here. It is the logistics of making the program and the legalities. Obviously pd is the way to begin. If anyone is interested in sending some samples that would be great. You can email me at craftondc at yahoo dot com. Steve- I think you could really assist those of us in the early stages of this process. Jeffrey- can't wait for the book.
    Two more questions: 1. regarding hymns- SATB or just melody? 2. English translations of the Latin?
    Colleen
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Colleen,

    if we sing anything in any language other than English, we print a translation in the "music bulletin." This is especially true for non-congregational pieces. I'm pretty strict about that, after having been demagogued on the whole foreign-language thing before.

    As to the parts, I personally despise the "johnny-one-note" hymnals, but it takes up a lot of space to include the harmonizations. I do it sometimes anyway, when it will fit, but most PIP aren't going to sing the parts anyway. In contrast, I went to a funeral at the Methodist church a few years ago, and everyone around me sang in parts. It was an amazing thing, until I remembered that practically everyone the decedent had known was a musician or choral singer. Still, if it had been at the Catholic church, there wouldn't have been any parts for them to sing in the first place!
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    Jeff--I really like the format of your programs. How do you put them together? Editing tools, etc? Where do you get the great headers? Does it take long to learn? Step-by-step would help. I'm not exactly tech savy (understatement). Please continue to post them. They are terrific.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Maybe Page Maker and Acrobat make things look neater, I don't know. I just cut from Sibelius and Paste directly into a Word document. It's fast and it looks good to me, plus Word automatically resizes the graphic to fit.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    PageMaker, like Finale, is a lot like a 747 -- it will take you anywhere you need to go, but there are an awful lot of dials on the dash.

    Word, MS Publisher etc give good results if you are less sure about the graphic design aspect of everything. Fortunately Mrs Yurodivi is a graphic designer and has taught me the rudiments of PageMaker. Otherwise I would be stuck with Word or Publisher.
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    Good advice. Thank you.
  • Thanks, Yurdovi. I guess the whole SATB offering to a congregation is a different can of worms....And I agree to the translation issue.
    Where are these postings by Jeffrey? Am I missing them on this site?
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    Hi Pipes,

    For an example of Jeffrey's program, go to thread: Weekly Music Planning (Ordinary Form) & see last entry. I think he should collect these examples & put them on a separate thread. They are scattered all over the forum! (As if he's got nothing else to do.. lol)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Oh, sorry. Missed that message. What we do is in Word. Just old fashioned stuff. Have to economize in the extreme. Basic tools are photoshop, adobe acrobat, Meinrad fonts, and ummm, that's about it!


    Here is Good Friday (borrowing musicasacra.com because cecilia being fussy)
  • tdunbar
    Posts: 120
    Curmudgeonly comment from the congregation:

    Throw away ALL the pew hymals, overhead projection, etc. It's all trash that just enables the schola/choir/praise band to get ahead of the congregation. The congregation can only sing what it has memorized, by ear. While the professionals may gripe about this, the end result will be a congregation that has internalized more music than those congregations with visual aids.

    I claim this is true no matter the type of music, whether chant, hymn, or praise song. Furthermore, I claim it is also true across various congregational socioeconomic levels. Of course, it is hard to find the congregations with which to gather the experimental data nowadays.
  • Ok, I'm not that computer savvy, but I'm not computer illiterate, either. After trying the suggestions of the responses, I still cannot place a file from Finale into Word or Adobe. It could be the age of the computer and programs. We have Windows 2000 professional and Finale 04. Could that be the issue? Thanks to Mr. Crafton, I am able to import the pdf chant files to word, however. I am determined to figure this out if anyone is patient enough to assist!
    Thanks!
    Colleen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,950
    "tdunbar CommentTime23 hours ago
    Curmudgeonly comment from the congregation:

    Throw away ALL the pew hymals, overhead projection, etc. It's all trash that just enables the schola/choir/praise band to get ahead of the congregation. The congregation can only sing what it has memorized, by ear. While the professionals may gripe about this, the end result will be a congregation that has internalized more music than those congregations with visual aids. "


    I have to agree with quite a bit of what you are saying. I work for the Latins but am Byzantine. When I attend the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, I sing the parts I memorized a long time ago. So does the rest of the congregation. Yes, there are books, but they are mostly used by those not as familiar with the liturgy. I can't imagine the congregation in my Latin parish ever singing without paper in front of them Of course, there is much more variety in the music - maybe there's too much variety in the non-changing parts of the mass. Perhaps some standardization would help.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    If you can print print, you can print to PDF, then you can open and graphics copy.
  • This is so odd- the proposal to choose repertoire that congregations have memorized was advanced by none other than the former Dominican priest from Oakland, Mathew Fox, at an NPM National in Detroit in 1981. An elegant idea then and now, but untenable.
    For myself, I think the notion of a congregation united in the posture of holding a noble, hardbound hymnal singing a solid ______ is wonderful. I don't quite feel the same way about the weekly pamphlets; I always flinch when seeing a flock of Cardinals at St. Peter's with their little scorecard ordos.
    YMMV
  • Colleen,

    Try this. I do it all the time with versions of Finale from 2001 to 2008. Go to Page View. Delete all the titles, copyright and composer text items. Open the page layout tool and set your Page Size to 6" wide by 1" (or larger if needed) tall. Next, make all your page margins 0 all around. Next make all the system margins 0 except for maybe the top one (.25). You should see a very small page (6x1) with just your music in it. Next go to the Graphics tool (has the cone, sphere, and box as the icon). Select "export pages" and select "Tiff" as the type. At the bottom of that box there is a resolution choice. Pick 600 dpi. It will prompt you for a name. When you open Word. Use "insert picture from file" and drop in your new Tiff file.

    Let me know if you have any questions

    Mike
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Colleen and Michael: I think it's actually easier than that. I keep my "page" at letter-size, and set my L/R margins at 1/8". Under "View"Turn ON the "Grid" (set to .25"). Now, once you have your melody-only hymn, you can select the area of said hymn using the grid for your start/end corners. You then have a graphic selected that, when you go to "Graphics", "Export", you can save as a TIF file. I use 600 DPI. Using the above method, all of my Finale graphics for MS Word insertion (or other programs) are exactly the same width, and approximately the width that I end up using whether my document is tabloid/trifold or letter/bifold. BTW, I keep my text size at 13 pt, my staff % = 75, and page % = 90. The Time font withing the Finale graphic ends up being very close to 10 pt within the word processor. I've been doing it this way for about 15 years.
  • Steve,

    I'm so used to the older versions. Anyway, I just use previous examples at this point since they are already ready to go. Just have to change the music.
  • Thank you all for your help. I have my first rough program! The tiff file worked- I just need to play with sizes, etc. Our church uses large print missalettes right now and I don't want something so little (pun intended) to be the reason we do not decide to do programs.
    Pax+
    Colleen
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    Anybody have examples of music programs they use for EF? Could you share them here?
  • WGS
    Posts: 299
    Jan,

    I prepare the program for a once a month EF Mass. It provides text only: Lat & Eng for propers including sequences, and Eng only for collects, epistle, gospel, special prefaces. A couple of years ago, I switched from a folded 8 1/2 X 11 to a folded 8 1/2 X 14 (legal size). This generally allowed me to increase the font from 10 to 13 and seems to be helpful to the older folk. I've never dealt with transmitting a legal size image, so here's my e-mail: wgstoops@cavtel.net. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll mail you a copy of what I have.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Here are two from my Sunday morning IF Mass in downtown Charleston. I'll try to post a couple from my evening EF Mass when I get home.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    And, as promised, here are a couple from my other Mass. I've been doing this one for 5 years now. I tend to update these weekly, and then C&P into the morning EF bi-fold, with some adjustments to the hymnody.