Noel, you sound like Todd. Lol.

I'm not sure why it's considered polite to end Psalms, from the BIBLE, after a few verses, but not hymns.

Almost half of these match your criterion: "If hymn writers want to write hymns for Mass they need to be written in the format required by the church: Short antiphons followed by verses."

Noel has some very good points, particularly addressing the reality that a hymn should not be butchered by singing two out of four or six+ stanzas. This notwithstanding that a good number of our 'complete' hymns are themselves centos of lengthier poetry. One cannot assert correctly, though, that the Church says that hymns cannot be sung at mass. What it says, rather, is that hymns are permitted in lieu of the (preferred) propers. It does not at all harm the liturgy for a complete hymn or anthem to be sung though a procession has reached its destination or the offertory action is complete. This is not mere 'waiting'. It is liturgically and thematically appropriate action, viz., the singing of an intelligently chosen hymn or anthem which further illuminates the day's teaching. If there are those who fume and consider this to be mere waiting, they are grossly ill-advised in their attitude to the sacral time in which their role is but one of many. As for the shortening of psalms, I half way share in Kathy's puzzlement, and think that an entire psalm, also, should be sung - even if it means that Somebody has to 'wait'. As Charles pointed out, hymns are here to stay and they are undeniably licit. There is a vast repertory of fine hymnody from which to choose; and a mass with (good) hymns can be quite as beautiful as one with propers. It is a different but legitimate aesthesis. Having said all this, however, I will again go on record as championing the Roman Rite as best exemplified by the singing of the appropriate propers. We need both. In two thousand years many liturgical innovations have found their way into our tradition. The late XX. century legitimisation of hymnody at the mass is one of these. The question is not whether hymnody, but of what quality it must needs be. We have now a very good choice of two aestheses and should appreciate them both.

" It does not at all harm the liturgy for a complete hymn or anthem to be sung though a procession has reached its destination or the offertory action is complete."

That's not what the church states.

For the record, would Noel give us some quotes from Church documents about the inappropriateness of delaying the Mass?

Amen, Jackson. Amen.

Church instructions are clear that the Mass is not to be delayed by music.

Not as clear as you think, Noel. The GIRM says:

The Entrance

47. After the people have gathered, the Entrance chant begins as the priest enters with the deacon and ministers. The purpose of this chant is to open the celebration, foster the unity of those who have been gathered, introduce their thoughts to the mystery of the liturgical season or festivity, and accompany the procession of the priest and ministers.

. . .

Greeting of the Altar and of the People Gathered Together

49. When they reach the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the ministers reverence the altar with a profound bow. As an expression of veneration, moreover, the priest and deacon then kiss the altar itself; as the occasion suggests, the priest also incenses the cross and the altar.

50. When the Entrance chant is concluded, the priest stands at the chair and, together with the whole gathering, makes the Sign of the Cross. . . .

"[A]t the chair" is underscored because this phrase is new to the GIRM 2000.

I emphasize "When the Entrance chant is concluded" because it seems to me that only after it ends can the priest stand for the sign of the cross.

A close reading of this section suggests to me that when the presider senses that the celebration has been opened, the unity of those gathered has been fostered, the thoughts of all have been introduced to the mystery of the season or festivity, then he signals to the schola that it is time to sing the doxology and thus to bring the entrance chant to an end.

Hymns are allowed, in black and white, in the legislation. We've had enough, I think--40 years--of liturgists randomly imposing rules on everyone else. I don't appreciate this attempt, at all.

That being said, it's the easiest thing in the world to sing a Psalm with an antiphon during the Communion procession, and I can't imagine a good excuse not to do so. If they're used to singing a hymn, that's perfectly legitimate: it can be sung after the Psalm.

Well that's fine. But you should consider the difference between "I, Noel, call for a re-evaluation of this legislation" vs. "Hymns should not be sung at Mass, says the church."

Noel, perhaps you should say that in the title of this thread, rather than making an untenable claim.

Hahaha. That's better.

Pius X is dead - great saint that he was - and the whole world has changed since then, including the rite of mass currently in use. What Pius X called for in the EF has little bearing on the OF regulations currently in force. It amazes me the folks who want to apply EF regulations to the OF, when we are commanded that there is to be no mixing of the rites.

Hymns are a legitimate part of the mass these days, and they don't appear to be going anywhere. Granted, if we are going to sing hymns, they should be the best ones we can find.

Noel, sometimes it's best to take the advice of John Lennon: "I don't wanna spoil the party so I'll go oh oh...." ;-O
I have to stand with Kathy. And she's a lot prettier than you, FNJ.
@Richard Mix- good programming! Which means we did exactly the same with "Lasst uns..."

I have to say, I love my schola. We sang Heath's "Jesu, dulcis memoria" arrangement beautifully as a prelude, de la Rue's "O salutaris hostia" wonderfully after communion, and Rice's SCG Communio perfectly as a "sight sing."

Then I gave a 2 hour RCIA presentation to catechumens on "Liturgy," went very well. I'm happy and pooped.
Pooped is a very theological adjective. Kathy, can you work "pooped" into a hymn translation? "Ye, who are pooped, I will thy yoke upon my shoulder."

Hopefully will help not with a dark night of the soul, but a dark night of REM sleep, a rare commodity since colloquium.

Raiders are sucking wind too, on DVR no less. Noel thinks he has problems. I'm a Raider fan. Is it no wonder why JT asked me to contribute to the cafe? My Joseph Heller cum John Zmirak cum William Burroughs' loquation; but I feel like Mister Ed- they do shoot horses don't they?

On the topic of better and worse hymns:
http://www.canticanova.com/articles/hymns/art2f1.htm

Another chief? place for hymns is in devotions and processions.
We seem to have gotten to a very impoverished place for devotions and processions in the Church today. Everything meaningful to communal devotions is shoved into the Mass.
It doesn't have to be that way.

Oh, and Charles,if you insist on repeatedly telling us the specifics of the (beautiful!) rep you program, I'll have to work harder at finagling a way to get to Visalia...

There is room in the mass for both hymns and propers.

I really, really have to laugh.

Here we have people desperately trying to justify singing hymns when the majority of Catholics will NOT sing them.

It's called, "Let's all keep trying to force people to sing."

The Catholic religious experience involves belief, an intellectual thing, rather than physical participation. It's always been this way.

Catholics will sort of sing the hit tunes of the church....meaning the acclamation and amen. And, if repeated enough, singable mass ordinary.

They will not sing music that changes, taking them out of their comfort zone. The church has always realized this, indicating that a schola should sing an antiphon (repeated....see the connection?) and verses by a cantor or a small group (music that changes) of the propers.

The propers make it a special Mass, different from all others said during the year. Honoring the feast of the day. It's always been a very special thing.

Singing hymns makes all Masses generic in comparison.

"B-b-b-b-b-ut...."

I sincerely doubt that the church fathers who spent years and years determining who should be canonized, what scripture verses truly fit a Mass which honors them on their feast day are pleased today as they look down from heaven, to see generic hymns that the people like to sing eliminating the Propers and the reverence due the feast.

The feast day Mass was about them. Today, it's all about us. The hymns we want to sing.

The Feast of St. Michael, St. Gabriel, and St. Raphael, Archangels

Entrance Antiphon

Bless the Lord, all you his angels: make the day glad with thanksgiving to our God.

Modern replacement: "It's a Saints Day! We only know one saint's hymn. We will sing For All The Saints!"

Offertory Song

The angel came, holding a golden censer, and stood at the altar.

Modern replacement: "Gosh, we don't know any other Saints hymns. Let's sing For All The Saints! again!"

Communion Song

All you angels, praise the Lord in heaven."

Modern replacement: "Gosh, we don't know any other Saints hymns. Let's sing For All The Saints! again!"

It's not LOL, it is LOT....lots of tears.

Diluting down the Catholic experience means that just on this day alone, children would not have heard that angels bless the lord and make the day glad with thanksgiving, that angels may come and stand by the altar with a golden censer at the offertory and that angels praise the Lord in heaven.

Hymns are wonderful except when they replace the Propers.

People should not be fighting to revise the Mass the way they want it for their own reasons and should be fighting to reinstate all of the devotions that are built around hymns.

We all know that if we were to sit down around a table with the church fathers that were behind Vatican II, we would discover that what they intended is not what they got in many cases.

Sing hymns at Mass. But only once you have fulfilled the job entrusted to you of singing the Propers.

No one can go up and say, "I've decided to read a different Gospel today than the one specified." or, "Mary Lou has written a lovely eucharistic prayer that I am going to say today instead of the one from the Sacramentary.

The restriction of what may and may not be said and sung at Mass preserves the Mass.

Nah... that was probably the only fitting hymn sung on that day and totally special. (However, did it replace a proper for such an important event?) If so, I wonder what all the other Saints had at their Mass in the same place? I bet it was... Greogorian Chant!

Kathy... hymns are wonderful! They should not be an all consuming fire, however.

LIQBITDTTEIPAPA. (Laughing internally, quietly because I'm too damn tired to engage in pedantic and purposeless arguments.)
Have we nothing better to do here than use the GIRM, Tra le, MS, CSL as mandates to do a Crime Scene Investigation forensic debate on principles? What are we so worried and worked up about? If you have a crime scene liturgy in your place, do something about it there. If you don't have a "there," get out there and find one for whatever compensation you can personally live with. Colloquium provides us models and inspiration. It doesn't give us a mandate to wear a sandwich sign saying "The End of Liturgy is Near!"
For every National's Stadium Mass, you'll find a complimentary opposite Liturgy of the Hours at the Basilica and some sort of compromise, composite Catholic hit parade such as was heard at St. Patrick's. So what?
Yes, I/we believe in the paradigm, as well as the heirarchy of the legislation to which we are bound to honor. But it is ridiculous to trumpet heralds calling for the musical practices of this global institution to turn on a coin. What is the hurry? Are we likely to die before personally witnessing the imposition of absolute uniformity, just as it may be? That, it seems to me, has a reek of vanity that might contradict a higher discipline: that of the gospels.
Okay, we agree that certain aspects/portions of the Second Council might have been misappropriated and misapplied into practice over four decades. But, in the history of the church, how much time passes on average before the effects of an ecumenical council can be reasonably determined? Uh, I think we're talking centuries there.
Personally, I think Newman's ear is tuned closer to the fulfillment of those "languages" we name "music" and "text." That fulfillment is imagined in both the psalms and the melodies and poetry of hymns here in this time.
Good hymnody is not something that we have to cry over with shouts of "Violence....how long, O Lord."
YMMV.

From Francis, a healthy and always relevant admonition, whatever genre is our music. All are holy, and all can become polarised ends in themselves - and thus, not holy.

Granted, I have had my days when I wondered what the fathers at Vatican II were smoking. They did not seem to foresee the logical consequences of their actions, to be sure.

I don't know what happens at your individual churches, but I know what happens at mine. Yesterday, at all 4 morning masses, I heard the congregation singing. I am in the loft close to the organ, yet I heard them singing hymns and mass parts over the organ. They didn't sing the communion proper, but they don't have copies of it. Only the choir and/or cantor sing it. What the people had printed music for, they sang. The key to that, I suppose, is that I chose music they knew and COULD sing.

Popes do not have the authority to bind future popes with their liturgical pronouncements. Pope Benedict has the same authority to set or change liturgical law as any of his predecessors.

If you're going to do hymns, I would say that they should be done "right"—in their entirety.

In some parts of the world, especially around Germany and Austria, the singing of vernacular hymns instead of propers goes back over 400 years. (They also use paraphrases of the Mass parts with permission from Rome—though that permission was in question after LA, until our current Pope came into office.)

I've found a couple of interesting quotes from Noel on his website regarding vernacular hymns—"Catholic hymns in the vernacular have been part of the church for centuries prior to the 1970's..." and "Vernacular songs have always been a part of the Catholic Faith..." (Source Here)

I fully support hymns, otherwise I would not have created a resource for people looking for the hymns of their youth. Hymns that were theologically sound, vetted and given the imprint, hymns such as the ones Kathy writes. I would have no fear in singing a hymn by Kathy who has proven her fidelity to the fath.

Hymns have their place when processions are extended in any circumstance, including the Mass.

But...putting them on equal footing with the Propers of the Mass, permitting them to be sung in place of the Propers, opening the door to a time when the odds of hearing the Propers at a Sunday Mass are not even a long-shot...

Was that the intent of Vatican II?