Crossing the river to the land of chant and polyphony
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Advice needed as a reference for those who have been charged with the responsibility to reform a music program already in place.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    FNJ, this is a cross post from the other thread question by Conbrio:

    Conbrio, welcome.
    Questions you need to ask your pastor before even proceeding with step one of remediation.
    1. (Simplest question) By "once a month Latin Mass," does he mean A. OF (Novus Ordo-Paul VI Missal) or EF (TLM, John XXIII '62 Missal.) Or might he mean "all music is sung in Latin by choir/congregation, and lessons and celebrant orations remain in English?
    2. Which movements of the Mass Ordinary does he personally prioritize as requiring vocal participation by all? Ask him if all the movements of the ordinary are to be sung, notably the Gloria and Credo. (Don't initiate a discussion of the IGRM/CSL options and canons, if he wants to cite documents, let him without comment that would seem to challenge his priorities. He's the pastor.)
    3. Ask him if he intends to chant his collects and orations at all or specific Sunday Masses? (Very important question.)
    4. Ask him to outline his vision for implementing the use of the Propers; if he only mentions the processional propers, ask him which form of the responsorial psalm or gradual, gospel acclamation or tract, and the occasional sequences he would like to implement.
    5. Ask him whether he has any preferences insofar as permitting "traditional" hymnody (that is orthodox) within the context of Mass or not.
    6. Ask him if he is fundamentally opposed to, or supports chants that are set to English texts, or psalm tone renditions of liturgical texts in English.
    7. Ask him if, given all possible scenarios, he would patiently support "progressive solemnity" as the "new" attributes of the celebration of Mass are implemented.

    That's all I got for you now. But I wouldn't make a substantive move in response to his mandate until you have a catalog of what items he's packed into that mandate.
    Then I think we can best give you advice.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    CICC, I understand.

    I am wondering if your questions illustrate why people freak out when facing the reform. I agree that there are very important things to know, but at the same time, trying to ask a priest these questions without knowing the possible answers yourself could be frightening.

    I'm not discounting in any way the value of your questions, rather I am suggesting that you expand further on them giving the answers that conbrio might hear.

    When I was a kid doing this, I had:

    1. A copy of the ordinary chants for the Mass with organ accompaniment

    2. A copy of the Rossini Propers

    3. A St. Gregory hymnal - for novenas and some eucharistic hymns for forty hours and first communion

    4. An Ordo

    Things were easier then.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    I understand those sentiments, Noel.
    However, if there is one thing I'm sure of that is a benefit of Vatican II, is that we in the laity must not recuse ourselves to a position of fear in our relationship with our priest/celebrants. Any relationship premised upon fear will not endure for long in any case. But to hammer the point home, recall Mahrt's simple reaction to his pastor 40 or so years ago when he requested Mahrt finding "suitable English music for Mass." Mahrt's confidence in the extent repertoire was such that he didn't have to engage that pastor about such a drastic change. Secondly, in my forty years, I've never felt "fear" for my job. I do understand and practice fealty and subordination, but with a confidence that experience and instruction constantly provides me. Been at my current gig, coming on 18 years.
    Conbrio mentioned he had two decades of choral direction experience. That's not a novice.
    But my list of questions I imagine to both be perfunctory, like a secretary asking her boss for particular preferences, and philosophical, so that Conbrio can get a "bead" on the over-arching concerns of his new pastor. In any case, it's just reasonable information gathering. Why would that necessarily be a frightening endeavor? I would hope the pastor would be pleased by the choirmaster's initiative.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    Even if your pastor's answers to Charles's questions are "No" or noncommittal, I think you can make some changes right now based on the following principles which will simultaneously improve the music and your choir:

    (1) Text is important - "The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources." (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy 121). Avoid texts that are vague, sentimental, or clichéd.

    (2) Less instruments, more voice - if at all possible, let your choir's voice be heard with a capella settings; teaching your choir to sing without accompaniment can improve their sound and their confidence.

    (3) Concentrate on music and texts that are integral to the mass - the ordinary of the mass the responsorial psalm should never be routine, but prepared well - this will also encourage people to sing their parts. Spending ample time on these parts tells your choir (and congregation) that the music of the mass, not just music "at" mass, is what's important.

    (4) Choose music that is solid, direct, authentic - avoid the gimmicky, faddish, fussy, bland, and commericalized - chant (English or Latin) fulfills this ideal admirably; a traditional hymn sung with various voice arrangements or even in unison, if it is beautifully sung, can be more effective than a complicated anthem; and if the text is worth hearing (see #1), you don't need a fancy setting

    All these things can be done without any permission from the pastor or anyone else - or so I would hope. There is a vast amount of music which is singable and beautiful, with solid texts, much of it FREE on the musicasacra website. I once ran a music program for a church for a season and spent exactly $0 on choir music (except for photocopies) - all the music was in the public domain, and there was far more music I wanted to do that we did not get to. It can be done without handing over any money to OCP or anyone else.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    CCIC,

    I agree with all you have written. I can say that within the diocese in which I live there are 7 priests who would understand all your questions and not be threatened by them. Out of 75 or so.

    I do not disagree with any of them, but think that they in some circumstances might need to be stated in much simpler terms.

    I am concerned about fear on both sides of the clerical fence. Seriously. A pastor of many years here had no idea that the daily NO Mass he says is a Latin Mass. He had to consult one of the 7 to verify what I was saying.

    Of the 7, 4 are taking turns saying public weekly EF Masses in two locations, the three others are in situations where it is not permitted.

    Your questions DO need to be answered and they are good questions.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Good advice, Sam.
    And Noel, you're right....I was only thinking from the choirmaster's perspective. I presumed such a pastor would be open to such questions as his mandate presumes a specific POV.
  • conbrio
    Posts: 41
    Oh my....I see this is going to be like taking a drink from a fire hydrant! This is where I'm at right now (please excuse my lack of correct terminology. I'm really such a pathetic product of VII):

    My pastor called all the choir directors and organists together and gave us our mandate. He wants us singing all mass parts (gloria and credo included) as soon as possible. So far, my choir (mostly children) are comfortable with the kyrie, sanctus, and agnus dei, using the setting from Jubilate Deo (Chant mode VIII). In one month, we have also learned Adoro Te Devote, Ubi Caritas and O Salutaris, so I have no doubt we will eventually be able to conquer even the credo!

    My biggest angst right now is regarding hymns and antiphons, when to use them, etc. I am so used to just selecting four hymns to go with the readings, yet I understand this is not the correct way to approach things.

    I have a million more questions, but I must run and pick up 7 children from music lessons.

    I will definitely be posting more questions. Thank you all a million times over for your patience with my childlike understanding of the mass. It's humbling, to be sure, but I really do want to seize this opportunity to make beautiful changes in music for mass.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    This would be a good place for my Sacred Music FAQ, if only anyone had gone over there and helped contribute answers....
  • conbrio
    Posts: 41
    Charles,
    Now that I have had time to study your suggested questions, I am going to copy them pretty much verbatim and give them to him. Once I have some answers, I'll likely be back for some interpretation as I have a feeling I may not completely understand the questions, let alone his responses.
    Thank you very much for your help.

    Now, back to specifics to work on for now. Can anyone suggest some simple yet beautiful polyphony for my choir to start with? I have about 20 regular singers between 7 and 15 years old. There are a couple of adults who join us from time to time as well, but all are within treble ranges. Again, I am very well versed in contemporary music, but not at all in anything else (except cello repertoire, but that doesn't help me here.) These children catch on fast and at least two of them have perfect pitch, so I'm confident we can accomplish good things in short order. I realize the choices must be vast, but please, suggest your favourites. As far a hymns are concerned, I think I have that under control, but I'm sure there is so much more out there that I'm just not aware of.

    As for the responsorial psalm, I have wandered over to the Watershed project as suggested on this forum. It is a wonderful resource. Thank you so much for mentioning it. What a change from the Respond and Acclaim.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    Here's a whole page of easy polyphony pieces.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Dude! I had no idea about that little page of easy polyphony. Fantastic!

    Is that Jeff O singing soprano on O Sacrum Convivium?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Dear Conbrio,
    There are quite a few pre-conciliar hymnals that have a substantial amount of equal voiced (mostly SSA or SA) Latin content, some polyphony, some "other." I'm thinking of the Mount St. Mary's Hymnal, The "small" St. Gregory, and maybe the St. Basil. There are even more "local" hymnals with similar contents. I'll take a look around the office and try to forward sources.
    CinCC
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    One source for treble-voice stuff, if you can find one, is Donald F. Tovey, Lautate Pueri: sacred music of the XVIth Century (London, Augener 1910), which has been mentioned here before. I haven't found one online yet, though it could be. One problem with it, which you're going to have to deal with in your singers anyway, is that many modern musicians are not used to reading the half note as the beat value. You get through it by doing it: there's no other way, and so much of the good material is written that way.
  • conbrio
    Posts: 41
    Thank you. I'll pour over all your suggestions and will check back for more. This is exciting!
  • conbrio
    Posts: 41
    The page of polyphony is wonderful, but I have a problem; no bass voices. I have a whole gaggle of girls and one teenaged male soprano, so I would say the lower range couldn't be any lower than an A below middle C. Any ideas?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    @Conbrio re:Treble voices...
    Has someone suggested the Kevin Allen stuff to you already?
    http://www.ccwatershed.org/projects/motecta-trium-vocum/
  • conbrio
    Posts: 41
    I'm actually just looking at some of his work right now. (Pardon my ignorance) but is it acceptable for the tenor line to be sung within an alto range rather than the octave below as written? If so, I may have found my first piece to work on.
  • conbrio
    Posts: 41
    Oh, this is why I feel so stupid. Yes, I see on the link you just sent that this option is available. I can't wait to work with the kids tomorrow!
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    Just in case you missed these treble voiced resources on musicasacra.com:

    Secunda Anthologia Vocalis - mostly SSA pieces in Latin by early 20th century composers writing in traditional style, along with some 16th century pieces

    Richard Rice's Introits for Treble Choir - written for the Extraordinary Form, but can be sung as motets - or in some cases, as propers - at an English mass.

    Sam Schmitt
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