English Ordinaries - revised Order of Mass
  • For those of us who are ... "encouraged" ... to use English settings of the ordinaries for most of the liturgical year (if not all), I am curious about what some of us will choose starting on November 27, 2011.


    I have looked at what GIA and OCP have available so far:

    and I'm less than thrilled with their selections due to the secular styling (pop/folk/mariachi band) of most of their new/revised settings. Some of the settings also mix different languages together, and I'd rather just stick with one in any given Mass part.

    I've looked at this site too, but nothing is said to be revised yet:

    I'd love to listen to Richard Rice's "New English Mass", but it's not available yet:

    I also really don't like the idea of doing yet another 'Glory to God' with a refrain. I would like the entire congregation to sing the entire hymn as it is really meant to be done - not just the first sentence over and over here and there as if it's suppose to be a refrain. I'm surprised that composers are given license to even do that for liturgical congregational singing. I don't think cutting out the refrains in some of the settings would sound good, either.

    Basically, I don't want to do another "revised-version-of-a-certain-popular-80's-Mass-setting" over again. I want to take this opportunity to do something new, different, and wonderful that everyone could like. Ideally, it should go very well with Gregorian chant (secular styling makes Gregorian chant stand out like a sore thumb).

    So, what new/revised English Mass settings will some of you be doing?
  • World Library Publications is publishing a setting of the Gloria in English by Richard Proulx that is in chant style and through composed. It looks very good.

    GIA is republishing Proulx's Mass for the City, World Library is republishing Mass for Christian Unity. These are good choices.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,444
    I think a few of the members here have written or are writing settings.
    I believe FNJ posted a few movements of his.
    Also, I'm working on a setting based on Shaker chant.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 673
    Apparently our archdiocese's chancery people are mandating that all parishes learn certain Masses. The new versions of the "popular" Masses by the usual suspects, of course. So that we can all have uuuuuuuunity.

    *head banged on wall*

    Amazing how quickly authority gets exercised for this kind of thing, whereas God forbid it get used for useful purposes. But my guess is that the archdiocese's parishes will probably follow directions exactly as they always do -- ie, not unless they feel like it.
  • Maureen...oy gevalt!

    Jeffrey, not to blow my horn, but...the Foundation for Sacred Arts just had a competition for such Masses, and it produced three dandy ones (one by me, and two by the talented young Ann Arbor composer Daniel Knaggs). FSA is planning some kind of online publishing initiative, but my faith is not firm that it will actually happen in a timely manner. You can hear mine at http://blog.case.edu/jeffrey.quick/2010/06/07/mass_in_honor_of_st_maximilian_kolbe_wins_prize , and if it does anything for you, perhaps I can get you a copy, if it doesn't get published in a timely manner.

    But what is this "Glory to God" refrain that you speak of? I don't know any Masses that do that. ;-)
  • Jeffrey,

    The link in your message asks for a username and password.
  • World Library Publications is publishing a setting of the Gloria in English by Richard Proulx that is in chant style and through composed. It looks very good.

    His Gloria, the "Gloria Simplex" is really gorgeous. I look forward to using it. You can see and listen to it here.
  • Thanks everyone! I will check out those suggestions.

    @ Marc Cerisier
    Which 'Jeffrey'? There are at least 5 of us on this forum.


    I wonder if the mentioned Proulx's Gloria is part of a 'set'. Will investigate soon.
  • Marc,
    I am so sorry...space case I am. Try this:

    (fixed it above too)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    As much as I love Proulx's Community Mass, the Gloria has been subjected to one of the worst (musical) revisions, which ends up sounding like "and on earth peace to people of Goodwill."
  • Just listened to Proulx's 'Gloria Simplex' and it is exactly what I was looking for.

    Since he was a contributor to GIA, I am surprised to not see this on GIA ... I guess that's why I didn't see this until just now. Interesting. Thanks PaixGioiaAmor and Marc for pointing it out! I also love Proulx's 'Missa Emmanuel'.

    I definitely feel your pain, and it's ironic that they're going for all this "unity". I thought that was what Ecclesiastical Latin was suppose to be used for.
  • I, too, also love Proulx's 'A Community Mass', but I feel it works best in a cathedral, with a big choir, and a good organ. Not in a small, dry space, with just a cantor and a piano. In a previous position, I tried that ... The "choir director" at the time wanted the Gloria tempo at about quarter=135. I thought to myself: "Are you kidding??" Proulx's tempo marking is quarter=80! She, however, refused to go that slow to compensate for the dry space. Needless to say, it didn't sound very good ... and she doesn't work there anymore.
  • Heath
    Posts: 928
    A few comments, if I may, mostly about the Gloria:

    --In general, I just don't see the revised settings working very well . . . basically, this is music not designed for this new text and that's exactly how each setting feels. I think the two Proulx settings (Community and Mass for the City, both great settings in their original form) are a mess. I wouldn't touch either, personally.

    --The Missa Simplex is nice, but maybe a little too repetitive . . . I can see it working well for about a month and then growing a bit stale. Maybe not, though.

    --It would be great to have every Catholic in the US know the English adaptation of Gloria XV which will be in the new Missal. It's super-repetitive as well, though, so I'd probably insist on doing it alternatim with the congregation so they wouldn't burn me in effigy after a few weeks.

    --I loooove Michael Olbash's setting of the Gloria which he introduced at the Colloquium. Wonderful! I'm wondering how accessible it would be for a congregation right at the outset, but a great composition nonetheless.
  • haha ... In searching for Michael Olbash's Gloria, I discovered this:


    "And by the way, why can't the faithful sing the Gloria in its entirety, rather than just a refrain?" - Michael Olbash from 'A Church Musician's Lament'
  • Oh man... I want so badly to believe in the OF, because it "is what is". I sing a dignified, traditional and artistic liturgy every Sunday, and I want to join the Church of Rome for THAT?! Thanks for the bummer, Mr. Coggins. ;-)
  • hey, I'm like an archaeologist ... I dig and I find stuff.


    It's a nice article. It describes my own situations and experiences very well.
  • re: Proulx's 'Gloria Simplex'

    I just stumbled upon Proulx's 'Corpus Christi Mass' and his 'Gloria Simplex' is very similar to the motifs in this setting. The copy I have of his 'CCM' doesn't include a Gloria, so I am left wondering if his 'Gloria Simplex' was also inspired by 'Adoro te devote'.
  • Heath
    Posts: 928
    I'm going to push this thread back to the top, as I have the same question as the original poster: **What are you going to use in YOUR parish? (Again, Gloria in particular)*

    Here's the set-up in my "parish": college campus, 5 weekend choirs, ranging from chant/polyphony to a praise-and-worship group. I currently use "Community Mass" as our "default" setting with my traditional choir, the other four choirs use "Mass of Light."

    I know that I won't be using the revised "Community Mass" after Advent 2011, so a) I need to find a new setting(s) to replace it; I'll already be burnt in effigy when the "Mass of Light" Gloria disappears at the other Masses so I'm wondering b) whether to use the revised setting of it (not a stellar revision, but not as bad as some others) or to throw in a new version.

    I've perused nearly all of the new settings from the various publishers and the process was pretty depressing . . . the only ones that I thought were halfway decent (in the "contemporary" vein) were a couple settings by Steve Janco over at WLP. And in the "traditional" realm, Proulx's "Missa Simplex" didn't blow me away, the English Gloria XV has the potential to be a snooze-fest (sorry) if not done well, and beyond that . . . nothing. (my apologies, as I repeated myself somewhat from my post above)

    And so again, *what's your plan?*
  • is it even certain that we HAVE the correct new translation??
  • @Heath
    Did Proulx have a 'Missa Simplex', or were you referring to his 'Gloria Simplex'? Just curious, as I would be interested in that as well.
  • Heath
    Posts: 928
    BachLover2: Great question! Knowing they made modifications, surely they didn't touch the Gloria?!? The publishers will, rightfully, flip their proverbial lids . . .

    Jeffrey: Sorry, I meant the "Gloria Simplex."
  • As soon as it is available, we will be singing the Gloria from the Newman Mass by James MacMillan. I love it.

    As an experiment, last week we sang the NEW TEXT using the ancient (Anglican) Merbecke Gloria tune with a few adaptations. People loved it. NOT ONE PERSON NOTICED OR COMMENTED THAT THE TEXT WAS DIFFERENT. They found the tune "refreshing".

    I like the Proulx Missa Simplex Gloria
  • @Joseph Michael
    Are we allowed/authorized to use the "new text" now?


    Here it states it is available for "catechetical purposes only", and to wait until November 27, 2011 for first use in liturgical celebrations.
  • Heath
    Posts: 928
    Joseph MIchael, would we be able to see a setting of the Merbecke Gloria in question?
  • Adam Bartlett his hoarding his Gloria - which is the best thing I've EVER seen in English. It is spectacular.

    Cough it up Adam!
  • Heath:

    The adapted Gloria by Merbecke is in manuscript. Am transferring it to Finale. Will post it ASAP.
  • Well, thank you Jeffrey for your enthusiasm! But I think it's probably a bit of an overstatement... Just a very simple and congregation friendly English chant setting of the text. I wrote it with my own parish congregation in mind. I'm awaiting a very important critical review, but will post after this.
  • As Jeffrey mentioned, I wrote a Gloria last week and it is now ready to go live.

    download here

    I was prompted to write this only after assessing the various settings of the new ordinary texts and I wasn't happy at all with what I found. Also, I kept the needs of my parish in mind, and I think that the result is something that is very singable, yet interesting enough for renewed interest and inspiration, and in keeping with the conventions of the Gregorian idiom. Maybe not the "best thing EVER in English", but I find it to be wearing very well so far.

    Disclaimer: This is not intended as a "chant adaptation". It does not take a Latin chant as its source, but rather uses the Gregorian compositional vocabulary to set the verbal structure of the English text. To what extent this is actually achieved, I'm not completely sure. I would much rather leave the English chant composing to masters of the craft like Fr. Columba Kelly, who has truly mastered the art. But he oversees my work and did approve of this setting.

    This is in the Creative Commons, so feel free to use and share as you wish (after Advent 2011, of course!).
  • Thank you so much Adam. I think this is just wonderful.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I'd like to hear some more responses to this thread.

    Right now I'm looking at doing all of the Sacramentary settings, in the interest of having a foundational common repertoire.

    In addition, I'm looking at the Kyrie and Agnus from Marier's Missa Brevis, since these texts will not change and the settings are simple chant-like compositions that may be performed accompanied or unaccompanied, with or without choir. Likewise, Proulx's Gloria Simplex. There are also some nice alternatim editions by Proulx that use the same congregational chants as the proposed ICEL settings.

    I'd love to see some composers write alternatim settings for choir that can be used with the Credo and Gloria in the Sacramentary, as well as a chant-like Sanctus with organ accompaniment (similar to the Proulx Gloria).
  • Likewise, incantu. I know there are more of us here who do an OF Mass every Sunday and [have to] use English Ordinaries. Maybe some people just don't know what they'll use yet. It's a good time to start thinking about it, though.

    Since it'll start on the First Sunday of Advent, I'll probably use Proulx's 'Missa Emmanuel'. If it isn't "officially revised" at that point, I'll just change the first line of the Sanctus to the revised text and omit the setting's original Memorial Acclamation. Maybe the Amen, too. I'd rather chant those two parts, anyway. I also wasn't going use the suggested 'verses' for the Agnus Dei and just stick with "Jesus, Lamb of God" (which isn't even a suggested 'verse').

    That'll be fine for Advent ... for the rest of the liturgical year, I'm not sure yet.
  • Heath
    Posts: 928

    Do you do the choral "extensions" with the Marier Kyrie? I started using them a couple weeks ago and they're a big hit! . . . with the choir at least; not sure about the congregation. : )

    Alternatim editions (Proulx) with the congregational chants: where are these?
  • @Heath
    Were you referring to the Proulx settings I mentioned above? I found mine in Gather Comprehensive (...), so I'm sure there are separate octavos from GIA. However, the editions I have don't include a Kyrie. His 'Gloria Simplex' mentioned above is from WLP.
  • Heath
    Posts: 928

    I was referring to Incantu:

    "There are also some nice alternatim editions by Proulx that use the same congregational chants as the proposed ICEL settings."

    I don't think he's referring to "Missa Emmanuel" or "Corpus Christi Mass" of Proulx's.
  • Oh yes, I missed that. I would be interested in that as well.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Here are some alternatim settings available from WLP, including one edited by Gwozdz. I don't see the Agnus Dei working in context, since the congregation wouldn't necessarily know to stop singing after the first iteration. However, a clever music director could follow this example and match any number of shorter polyphonic settings of the Kyrie and Agnus with simple chants for the congregation. That way you can keep the choral music fresh from week to week by cycling through a handful of settings while keeping the congregation's parts the same. I suggested the same approach for the Gloria and Credo. Even the Amen and Deo gratias could be similarly expanded. Really, only the Sanctus presents a problem for using multiple polyphonic settings interchangeably with the same congregational responses, but it is short enough to learn several through-composed settings.

    If we all learn the standard, i.e. the Sacramentary editions and the Jubilate Deo chants, this would be an ideal model of congregational participation to follow in parishes, since the same music could be done with or without choir, with or without accompaniment, in simple and more solemn forms. I'm afraid, however, that the publishers are once again pushing to confuse the nations with their proprietary Tower of Babel settings of the ordinary. Even the well-meaning CMAA type composers seem to be offering an array of newly composed works that surpass the number of ordinary settings that the faithful could really commit to memory, missing the mark for music that is "universal." I say this with all due respect for the composer's craft.
  • "Even the well-meaning CMAA type composers seem to be offering an array of newly composed works that surpass the number of ordinary settings that the faithful could really commit to memory, missing the mark for music that is "universal." I say this with all due respect for the composer's craft."

    Could you expand on this? This is an interesting take on the subject. Do you mean the Jubilate Deo in the new text? The concept of a new translation Jubilate Deo - this is something that COULD be forced on the publishers along with the translation with some work and would be a move to a universal English core of music.

    Of course, it would make sense also to seize works like the Bartlett Glory To God and create an English Jubilate Deo for Today's church....chant written FOR the new translation rather than fitting new words to the old melodies.
  • Possibly a CMAA English Ordinary proposal could be submitted to US Bishops & Cardinals for adopting within their diocese.

    In Square note, round note parallel setting with optional organ accompaniment...

    Alternatim and other choral settings as well as organ pieces based on it for introduction -
  • Paul Ford, over at P/T, quotes the other Ford, Bruce E., commenting upon the ICEL settings. Despite Bruce's analysis that ICEL seemed not to adhere to "genetical" traditions, I found it interesting that he also stated that the ICEL settings "sing well."
    Well, having chanted through the Glory to God about three times, I have to agree with that last statement. The ICEL Gloria, despite its austerity (without excess, luxury, or ease; simple; limited;) is eminently singable by all, and is rife with possible interpretational performance practices.
  • incantu,
    As long as the congregation is singing, it's going to be a disaster. Having good music and having the sort of "active participation" that the US Bishops want are incompatible. Should the congregation sing? Sure! Let them sing the Creed and some good hymns. (I was raised Lutheran, and you can't stop them from singing!) They don't have to sing the (rest of the) Ordinary or Propers.

    If it's presumed that everyone has the gift of song, why isn't it assumed that everyone has the same gift of celibacy that the priest has? That would take care of the sing-along Mass problem in a generation or two.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,444
    steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

    And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

    Are you suggesting that the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation (what's the Latin name?), and Amen... don't pertain to us?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I have a GLORIA that alternates between SATB versets and unison singing, if anyone is interested. Based on Gloria III.

    contact me
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Jeff O, I'm glad to see you chime in on this. I think the model for on-line submission and distribution you have created for psalms and alleluia verses could lend itself well to the type of compositions (and editions of existing works) I'm suggesting for the ordinary.

    @Noel - The so-called "Jubilate Deo" Mass is part of a "minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant" that every can be expected to know. The new Sacramentary chants provide an additional opportunity to have a common repertoire in the vernacular, in accordance with article 58 of Musicam Sacram. In many cases, the proposed Sacramentary chants are in fact vernacular adaptations of the chants found in "Jubilate Deo."
  • Adam, are you suggesting that any congregation anywhere is singing them in the OF in Latin?
    And if sing-along is mandated by SC, what are any of us doing setting the Ordinary instead of using chant? Is there in fact any real place for composers in the Catholic Church?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,444
    Whether they are doing it in Latin or not is hardly my point. (See "more extended use of the mother tongue" etc.)
    My point is that the "sing-along Mass" as you call it seems to be the normal preference of the Church with regards to the OF.
    Special occasions, I believe, are allowed (like Choral Masses at gatherings of musicians), in keeping with the venerable tradition of such things.
    But average Sunday morning services at an average parish: I think we're supposed to all be singing those things.

    In chant? In Latin? In calypso style to a bad translation?
    Those are separate questions. Worth asking, yes. But separate.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    There is a distinction in the liturgical documents between "chant" and "music." The traditional place for composers in the Catholic Church has been writing "music" for the choir. The role of the choir, however, has changed. Writing complete ordinaries for the choir to sing regularly and to the exclusion of the people is not in keeping with current liturgical norms. Composers would do well to write choral settings of the Proper (not excluding the Responsorial psalm and the simple Gospel acclamation), and those parts of the Ordinary that pertain to the choir (according to the options provided in the GIRM).
  • "Writing complete ordinaries for the choir to sing regularly and to the exclusion of the people is not in keeping with current liturgical norms."

    Do you mean norms as what is normally done or as specifically outlined in the GIRM, for example?

    It is worth reading this by one of the fathers of the current musical movement from way back in 2005: here
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The GIRM, yes, but even as far back as Musicam Sacram these norms are established. There's no reason a choir can't sing a through-composed polyphonic setting of the Gloria, or the Kyrie, or the Agnus from time to time, but choral singing of all of the ordinary and proper all of the time is not permitted. With alternatim settings, however, one could perform polyphony all the time without excluding congregational singing, provided the people had a stable repertoire of chants that worked in alternation. This does not exclude settings in a more popular style; however, writers of "contemporary" music do not seem to have followed this model up to this point.
  • Is a purely spoken Mass prohibited?
  • I got a little quarrelsome yesterday, and subsequently depressed, and I am sorry for that. I'm pushing for personal answers here, and in the process I'm going to get a little personal. And if this at times seems too much like disrobing in front of strangers, well, avert your eyes.

    I came to Jesus several years ago after a lengthy period in the most-Catholic-like denomination of Wicca. I am currently a member of an Anglican Catholic church, because I work there. My sense of things is that I ultimately need to go Roman. I'm loath to give up the gig, but can't justify selling out my Lord for 45 Federal Reserve Notes a service (at least Judas got something with intrinsic value). There are EF services I could participate in, but ultimately I have to make my peace with the OF , because it IS the Ordinary Form.

    I've been having experiences of "deja vu all over again". I got into a debate with somebody on a Catholic board who claimed I wasn't receiving the True Presence, even though that's practically all my priest talks about. I read his evidence, and it turned out to be exactly the same situation as a major traditional Wiccan schism in the early 90s. Likewise, though I made some experiments early on, I soon figured that there was really no place for concert-type music in Neo-pagan worship. (My Muse likes Dufay more than drum circles, and I generally consider her to be the smartest part of me.) Now I'm beginning to wonder if there's one in the Catholic world either.

    I just made a setting of the new English Ordinary which met with the approval of three of the finest minds in Catholic church music (most or all of you are here, and know who you are). The only part of it which could in any sense be considered suitable for congregational participation is the Gospel Acc. Have I written a white elephant?

    Part of me wants somebody to tell me, "Write this, in this way, to these texts." But it's not at all clear that we collectively know the answers to that question. I want to believe in the authority of the Church, yet I know that the leaders are as susceptible to communism, relativism, and secularism as anyone else, and this is one place where I have reason to doubt the break from tradition. I'm a practical musician, I'm always trying to meet my end of the bargain (make performers look good, and they'll make you look good). But I find that at some point you hit an irreducible minimum, where simplification of thought becomes non-thought. I would hate to have to say most of what I have to say through secular choirs, but if that's how it is, that's how it is. I guess the main problem is that I've fallen in love with the Platonic ideal Catholic Church, the church that paid for most of the music that I most love, and that is not the real Catholic church.

    So, sorry for the extended cri de cour. To reduce it to a simple question: what the ____ should I write?!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,444
    There is no reason not to write a "non-congregational" ordinary. Your compositional talents are a gift from God, given to you for His glory- use them as you feel called and inspired. There is a rich tradition of choral/polyphonic mass settings which are clearly not congregational in nature. There's nothing wrong with that.
    Just don't expect to win any NPM awards.
    And don't be troubled if your Mass setting isn't used in "average" parishes. There is a place in the Liturgical world for the special occasion, for the Missa Cantata, for the only-the-choir-sings celebration. That place probably isn't Our Lady of Suburbia's 9am "Family Mass." That's all right.