FAQ Question Suggestions

Adam Wood

I vote that CMAA create an FAQ section devoted to basic, factual information.
To jumpstart that, I propose we use this thread as a holding pen for question ideas.
THIS WILL NOT BE THE PLACE TO ANSWER THEM!
(If you want/need/have an answer- that could turn into a whole other thread- so create one.)

But this is just a brainstorm on:
-What are the questions that come up over and over again?
-What are the questions someone might have if they want to "do things right" but don't know where to start?

Adam Wood

What are Propers?

How do I know what Propers to sing on a given day?

What is
-Introit
-Gradual
-Alleluia
-Offertory
-Communion
??

Are the Alleluia and the "Gospel Acclamation" the same thing?

Are the Gradual and the Responsorial Psalm the same thing?

If I'm doing a Proper and a Hymn together (an Introit and a Processional, for example):
-is that allowed?
-what are the logistics?
-which do I do first?

Am I supposed to chant a psalm along with short Proper antiphon?
If so, which one?
and how?

Where can I find Propers?
Are there any online?
What books should I buy?

I don't read Latin.... How do I use my Graduale Romanum?

What's a Simplex? How do I use?

I read about the Triplex somewhere... do I need to buy that too?

What's the difference between the Missal propers and the Gradual propers?

I want to set the Propers to music. What translation should I use?

I want to set the Propers to music. What are the copyright concerns?

We're doing no propers. Which one should I introduce first?

Where can I learn:
How to read square notes?
How to conduct chant?
How to teach chant?

Can I do the Propers in styles other than chant? If so, what's available?

Does Liturgiam Authenticam affect translations of the propers?

Adam Wood

FNJ I suggested I "build it"
I would- except I only sort of know the answers. If people want to start helping me, I don't mind organizing the effort- but I definitely need other people's knowledge.

Jeffrey Tucker

This is an excellent suggestion. Dobzsay had an astounding article some issues back in SM on the whole propers question. I need to dig that up and summarize its main points. The propers have been stable since very early - that's its upshot.

Jeffrey Tucker

And these questions are truly everywhere. Hardly anyone knows anything.

IanW

How do we reconcile the four-line verses of responsorial psalms with the binary nature of psalm-tone formulae?

Adam Wood

If I want to do propers at a non-RC parish that uses the Revised Common Lectionary (Anglican, Lutheran, some Methodist, etc)- what do I do about the calendar? Should I try to match Sunday-to-Sunday based on the Gospel? Or just do wahtever the Romans are doing that day, regardless of the lectionary differences?

(I know this isn't a legislated issue, but I'm personally curious if there is a common consensus or practice on this point).

Chrism

I think what people are looking for in a FAQ is not so much "what are CMAA's criticisms of today's Catholic music" but "how does one provide Catholic music (from scratch)?" So if you wouldn't mind, here is what I would suggest as a talking point:

1. The Order of the Ordinary Form of the Mass
a. Options for pre-Mass music
b. Options for Entrance music
i. Latin Propers from the Graduale
* Gregorian Missal / Graduale 1974
+ accompaniment options
* Graduale Triplex
* Graduale Simplex
* Polyphonic
* Modern Sacred Music
* Psalm-Tone
* Recto Tono
ii. English Propers from the Graduale
* Option 1
* Option 2
iii. Latin Propers from the Missale
iv. English Propers from the Missale
v. Etc.
vi. Alius Cantus Aptus - what it is not
c. Options for singing the liturgy
d. Options for Penitential Rite

etc.

2. The Order of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass

3. Gregorian Chant
a. How to read the notes
* Links to Turkington videos
* Links to guide books
* Links to scholarly treatises
b. How to sing the notes
c. The rhythm debate
d. Accompaniment methods
e. Chironomy
f. Early manuscripts

4. Sacred Polyphony

5. Sacred Hymnography
a. Latin hymns
b. English-language hymnals
c. How to roll your own hymns
d. Listings of recommended hymns for each possible Mass Part for each Sunday, Weekday & Feast of the Church Year in the EF and OF calendars. Or maybe this is included above in the Order sections 1 & 2. I don't know.

6. Music Legislation -
a. How to interpret Church legislation
b. Which documents are binding at which Form of the Mass
c. Links to documents! In Latin and English
d. Links to discussions and historical accounts

7. Anglican Use

8. Eastern and other Rites

9. Worship aids

10. Sacred Music Employment
(Include a section on Composition)

11. CMAA Programs

12. Sacred Music Apologetics
a. Here is where you put the "FAQ" in Q & A form.

noel jones, aago

"If I want to do propers at a non-RC parish"

I would never advise doing what the Romans do in any non-Roman church. That's ground for dismissal and total disregard for the liturgical traditions of the denomination that is paying you.

Successful church musicians study the denominational policy, practices and blend in. The conservatives in a congregation tend to be big givers and strong supporters of those who toe the liturgical practices line. And in many congregations you AND the pastor are only employees and the pastor may NOT be a member. In those parishes (and many others) you must please the people because there you work for them. In the Episcopal church you are only responsible to the priest, like the Catholic church. He does have to justify his decisions to the Vestry. In the RC church there is no such responsibility.

You will find clergy who plan the entire year of sermons in advance and hand you the list of hymns for the entire year. In those churches you are usually expected to try and match the choir anthem to the sermon. The sermon may or may not have ANY connection to the readings of the day, which in many denominations can be picked to suport the sermon!

Baptists, for example, consider every Sunday to be another Easter. Playing Advent music in Advent gets shoved aside for Christmas Carols. Lent does not exist.

You may find yourself being told to prepare a singer and accompany him singing "Big Bad, Leroy Brown" just before the sermon. Do it.

Adam Wood

"If I want to do propers at a non-RC parish"

I would never advise doing what the Romans do in any non-Roman church. That's ground for dismissal and total disregard for the liturgical traditions of the denomination that is paying you.

In my particular case, I think it would go over well (I couldn't do Gregorian Chant for all of them, but if I mixed it up with Anglican-chant, High Church choral music, strophic hymns settings, and so forth- people would like it).

Either way, I think it merits an FAQ entry.

Chrism:
I think the Primer you're describing is also a good idea. The FAQ issue is that people keep asking specific questions. I have them all the time myself- and I keep finding a sort of "Gosh, we're tired of answering that one...[big sigh...] okay- here's the deal with the Missal propers vs. the Graduale propers."
It's also good for SEO: increasingly, people are just entering their question directly into Google.

But I'm confused about your first statement:

I think what people are looking for in a FAQ is not so much "what are CMAA's criticisms of today's Catholic music" but "how does one provide Catholic music (from scratch)?" So if you wouldn't mind, here is what I would suggest as a talking point:

I don't think anyone suggested an FAQ as a place to go over criticism of Catholic music. I think (I know from personal experience) people have some initial basic curiosity (what are propers?) which leads them to ask specific questions (where do I find propers?) which causes them to go shopping (what book should I buy?) which causes more questions (how do I read this book?). Then they try to use it (How do I sing this?). Then they try to learn more (What about other settings?). Then, somewhere along the line, they fall into a black pit of seemingly unanswerable questions (Translations of the Propers? Missal propers vs. Graduale propers? Copyright of the Psalter? What's a Graduale... a book? a chant?)

And, un/fortunately, at some point they end up somewhere like these forums- which are both great and also scary. Two chant experts geeking out over the Mora Vocis can make it seem like there is a too much to learn, to know, OH MY GOD I'LL NEVER FIGURE IT OUT....! Better go home and practice All Are Welcome on the kazoo and guitar...

An FAQ would send the message: This isn't hard. You can do it. Here's all you need to know. Here's the answers to your questions. Other people have these questions, too. It isn't just you.

francis

I know what the proper selections of sacred music should be, but what are the practical steps to implementing it in my parish, step by step?

noel jones, aago

It could be useful if the FAQ would reference articles and discussions of the forum.

Chrism

I didn't think of SEO - I assumed we would just hand out CMAA FAQ cards and people would hit the site. You're saying that people are talking about Propers outside of CMAA?

In any event, I recommend the FAQ be organized like a Wiki, because it would be easier to maintain the information. You don't need to make it "everyone can edit", but a hypertext environment where you can, for example, link Introit to Proper and Chant without having to explain, inline, what each term means, would provide a bit more flexibility and allow for the FAQ to be a powerful and effective tool before every question has been fully answered to everyone's satisfaction, like the Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

Adam Wood

You're saying that people are talking about Propers outside of CMAA?

Here is data from Google about how many keyword searches there are each month for terms related to CMAA's mission.
I removed words that had high numbers based on other meanings (Simplex) or which seemed like trendy uses of chant (chant mp3s, chants cds, free gregorian chant lyrics).

Keyword Global Monthly Searches
gregorian 823000
dies irae 368000
magnificat 301000
gregorian chant 201000
te deum 165000
panis angelicus 110000
sacred music 90500
latin mass 74000
mass latin 74000
catholic hymns 49500
gaudete 40500
traditional catholic 33100
roman missal 27100
ubi caritas 27100
pange lingua 22200
catholic missal 18100
antiphon 18100
tridentine mass 14800
ave maris stella 14800
sunday missal 12100
graduale 12100
missale romanum 9900
introit 9900
antiphons 9900
latin prayers 8100
plainchant 8100
liber usualis 6600
daily roman missal 5400
traditional latin mass 5400
mass ordinary 5400
catholic latin mass 4400
roman breviary 3600
roman catholic missal 3600
gregorian choir 2400
gregorian ave maria 2400
catholic chant 2400
tridentine latin mass 1900
graduale romanum 1900
dies irae chant 1900
catholic missals 1600
gregorian hymn 1600
ambrosian chant 1600
introit requiem 1600
ordinary of the mass 1600
gregorian requiem 1300
adoremus hymnal 1000
gregorian chant history 1000
gregorian chant kyrie 1000
gregorian gloria 1000
mass propers 880
latin mass translation 590
traditional catholic books 590
graduale simplex 590
gloria gregorian chant 480
alleluia gregorian chant 480
mozarabic chant 480
te deum chant 480
pater noster chant 390
history of gregorian chant 320
veni creator spiritus chant 320
latin mass propers 260
the ordinary of the mass 260
credo gregorian chant 210
gregorian chant sanctus 210
beneventan chant 210
gregorian chant propers 58

Chrism

I think the variety of searches also suggests a Wiki format. Each of those search queries could have, for example, its own page with title matching or similar to the search query, e.g. Dies Irae, which would feature page #'s in chant books and links to discussions of whether or not it is acceptable for liturgical use at the OF. Other sites and blogs would link to individual pages. Wikipedia itself could link to individual pages.

One could imagine a situation where someone interested in the Dies Irae from a purely cultural point of view finds SacredMusicWiki's Dies Irae page near the top of the Google list, and ends up maybe five clicks away from ordering a schola for his own funeral.

BachLover2

the faq would be appreciated by man

Maureen

Re: propers at a non-RC church

Well, apparently Anglicans and Lutherans have propers; and apparently a lot of itsy bitsy churches have the tradition of "last Friday we started this church, and we can do whatever we want for liturgy or worship". So it's a valid question, and could easily be done in good faith.

You might even want a FAQ on "I do medieval/Renaissance music for fun/money, and would like to learn about singing propers/the Office because it's part of the music/my persona would have done it." In both cases, you'd want to say straight out that "Our organization isn't really set up for this, but here are resources for you".

noel jones, aago

and womany

chonak

aquinasadmirer

I can't get this one to work.

* Easy music for a children's choir?
http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40

chonak

I guess it's no longer on the forum. I'll mark it as a broken link.

Adam Wood

I like the idea of a wiki, but the implementation is kindof a pain.

Here's what I'm going to do:
I will compile questions and sort into topical groups.

Once I've completed a "master list" of FAQs, I'll open it up for everyone to contribute answers and links to answers. (I certainly am not qualified to write the answers out of my own head).

I'll compile those into concise, clear, factual answer articles.

Once done, I'll post them somewhere for public comment- so everyone can have a go at clarifying and correcting my work.
Once those corrections have been made, I'll open them live.

Obviously, they can always be edited or added to in the future.

I've purchased the domain SacredMusicFAQ.org
That site will be dedicated only to this project.

In the meantime, keep coming with question ideas.

aquinasadmirer

Under parish music programs...
These are questions that come to mind:

How can I approach the music director/liturgy director about promoting chant?
How can I approach my priest about promoting chant at my parish?
What if the architecture/carpeting require microphones?

Adam Wood

Those are GREAT questions, but.... I think this particular project should stick to questions with definitive, factual answers.

aquinasadmirer

If answers are lacking, chartable informed suggestions will suffice. In my experience, these are the questions that either open roadblocks, or they add razorwire on top. Music theory and form are secondary to these questions. Without an approach to these questions, the rest of the fine answers to these queries will remain, sadly, in the realm on discussions of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Please excuse any trace of cynicism; it's not intended, but I know it'll come out in this post.

Said differently, if the music director and the priest dislike/are indimidated by/feel that it's not pastoral to have chant/mass propers, then what? Any answers to the above questions will fall on deaf ears, no? If so, this needs some kind of answer, or the rest of this FAQ is a non sequitor.

Adam Wood

Good points.
Okay- you've convinced me.
I'll just make sure it's clear what answers are basically encyclopedic, and which are advice/opinion.

aquinasadmirer

Thanks Adam,

This is definitely a opinion/suggestion portion of the FAQ; I agree. I'm grateful you'll be including these kinds of items in addition to the more encyclopedic references.

-Mark

Adam Wood

Progress update: Basic site is built (boring visual design- I'll get to that eventually).
I am just starting to enter questions, so there's no real content... yet.

Questions are basically blog post entries, and I'm soliciting answer suggestions through the comments. When a comment thread has sufficiently answered a question, I'll summarize the answer into the text of the blog post, give credit to those who helped, and delete the comments. Categorization is extensive, as is tagging. Plus an internal search feature. Eventually I'll have "Related Questions" so- it should be pretty easy to navigate when it's all said and done.

As of this writing, I have only entered one question- but I'll be working on getting all the ones from here in as quickly as possible. I'll also add a "Suggest new question" box soon.

If anyone has any feature suggestions, feel free to share them (I might not do it, but I'll always consider things).

I expect it'll take a month or more before the knowledge base reaches critical mass and it's worth publicly linking to and unblocking from search engines: So please don't send people there to look at it. But if you want to help (or know someone who knows a lot about Sacred Music), feel free to check it out.

http://sacredmusicfaq.org

Adam Wood

I have a bunch of questions in there, and am adding more.
Is anyone going to help with providing answers? You'll be credited, with links to your own sites/blogs (if you have them).

Adam Wood

http://sacredmusicfaq.org/

Michael O'Connor

A FAQ on finding music for the Vatican II Liturgy of the Hours in English would be superb!

Adam Wood

Can do!
Specific questions to add to the site?

Jeffrey Tucker

Wow, this is so great!

Michael O'Connor

Adam, have you thought about creating a Sacred Music wiki?

Adam Wood

i've tried setting up a wiki in the past for another project- it was beyond my skill set (and I build websites for a living).
Also, I have found that the skill level needed to edit a wiki often ends up discluding the people you most want contributing (not every music geek is also a web geek... I actually talked to the founder of Wikipedia about this after I unsuccessfully tried to edit their entry on Stephen Sondheim. His response was something like, "Yeah- we know it's a problem.")

I think there's a strong need for what I'm building with the FAQ site, and i'd like to keep it very focused- so having some Editorial control works very well.

I am planning to launch a more expansive site next year, which will have more wiki functionality, but (shh!) that's a secret for now.

Adam Wood

JT:
Glad you think it's great!
Now... go answer a question or two.

Please?

Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!

Categories