Salve Regina as hymn of praise after Communion?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Would it be appropriate to sing "Salve Regina" after Communion every Sunday during October? Can this be the "hymn of praise" talked about in the GIRM and STTL?
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 757
    The focus of communion is Our Lord. There is, though, a long-standing tradition of singing a Marian anthem immediately after the Concluding Rite. The practice is to sing one of four such according to season: the Salve Regina after Pentecost; the Alma Redemptoris Mater from Advent to February 2nd; the Alma Regina Caelorum from February 3rd to Holy Week; and the Rgina Caeli from Easter to Pentecost.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Well, we had envisioned singing a psalm DURING the reception of Communion with the Salve Regina AFTER. Does that change things? Or should it still take place as the "recessional" hymn?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    Mary's canticle, the Magnificat, would be far superior to the SR in the placement after Commmunion.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 757
    I think what you're suggesting is inserting something into a blank spot in the Liturgy. I don't think that's bad in principal (I guess it's one way the liturgy developed in the first place), but (i) this isn't exactly a liturgical blank spot - we have the post-communion chant to sing (ii) I still feel a Marian anthem, admirable in itself, would distract us from contemplation of our Lord just after we have made our communion with Him (iii) there's already a traditional place to sing the Marian anthem.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 860
    The only Marian hymn of praise suitable for singing after communion is the Magnificat, if it was not already sung as the communion song. See Graduale Simplex, ¶21 and p. 462
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,777
    I don't have the documents at hand, but our venerable local custom has been to always sing Regina coeli thru Eastertide after the communion hymn. In keeping with progressive solemnity I would have liked to introduce Alma redemptoris next, but since two of the antiphons are now optional, only Rc and Sr are in the hymnal. So today we added Salve regina, with another go next week when the Oakland diocese observes the Octave of the Assumption.

    There is (if I understand aright) a requirement that the people be able to join in the 'post communion' which would make a polyphonic Magnificat undesirable, and my musicianly sensibilities shrink from straight psalm tones in this context. But now if Liam and Paul are thinking of a nice Mag. paraphrase like the Schütz tune in the Lutheran Book of Worship... ;-)
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,377
    Of related interest may be the following -
    At St Basil's Chapel at Houston's UST this morning of solemnity was sung (totally: readings, offertory prayers, canon, creed and all) a complete NO Gregorian mass in English: the ordinary (Kelly) mass XI, and the propers (Palmer-Burgess) from The Plainchant Gradual. The offertory antiphon was expanded with Englished verses as given in Offertoriale Triplex. During communions was sung Magnificat. After the dismissal was sung the votive antiphon, Salve Regina. Organ voluntaries before and after mass were, respectively, Bach's fugue on Magnificat and an improvisation on Salve Regina. Leadership was by the summer class of St Basil's School of Gregorian Chant. The congregation of roughly 200 sang their parts heartily from square notes, in tune, and no organ - including the lovely Assumption alleluya.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,777
    hmm...Singing Through The Liturgy...no, wait, got it- Sing to the Lord. GIRM 88 is the bit that covers singing "after distribution" "If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may be sung by the entire congregation." It doesnt say anything about a 'blank spot' between the "communion chant" and the end of distribution, but there does seem to be a potential gap for an anthem after one of the 4 options for the [first] communion chant is fulfilled, if it finishes in time.

    We use the communion antiphon sung by cantor solo (a kind of compromise between "expressing union in the spirit by means of the unity of their voices" and "care should be taken that the singers, too, can receive communion with ease.") followed by a communion hymn which is sometimes stretched with interludes or repeated verses and sometimes followed by organ music as needed.
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 495
    Dr. Ford,

    What ed. of the Graduale Simplex are you referencing? My 1967 edition (typis polyglottis vaticanis) doesn't go to p. 462 (last page is 431).
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,188
    I have been singing the Marian anthem after communion because people would not stay for it after the dismissal. After a year of singing the appropriate Marian anthem in Latin, people are participating rather well. Salve Regina is sung with gusto.

    Sadly, we are not ND de Paris, where it sung after the dismissal. C'est difficile chanter a ma eglise apres le benediction!
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I guess my remaining question would be if the GIRM says "If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may be sung by the entire congregation," why could Salve Regina not be "a hymn sung by the entire congregation?"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    I see no real reason in the OF why it couldn't be sung. Salve Regina would be head and shoulders above "Gather us in on the Edmund Fitzgerald..." or similar bilge.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    Normally, the prayers of the Mass are directed to the Godhead in some form or the other. The Marian antiphons, in the context of the Mass, work best after Mass, in keeping with the spirit of the norms of prayer for the Mass itself. The Magnificat, however, fits perfectly. I don't understand there being a good reason to direct a prayer to the Blessed Mother during the Communion rite (which includes everything up to the Post-Communion prayer).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    I played a Flor Peeters improvisation on the Gregorian Ave Maria today after the communion hymn. Of course, no one knew what it was.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 860
    Arthur, I am using the editio typica altera (second edition), 1978.

    PaixGioiaAmor, Liam is correct. He is asking the right question: Who is being praised? Who is the object or the prayer? At communion time, only God should be praised and prayed to.

    Kevin, your situation is like many of ours. But it can't be invoked to do something that is not theologically correct.

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,188
    Paul,

    Yes, I know. My preference was to sing it after the dismissal. The powers that be said otherwise.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,377
    Not at all to question the theology of why we sing what at the mass. But, how then is the litany of saints at the Easter Vigil justified?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    It's in a different part of the Mass, and is a very noticeable exception (notice, I said "normally") - and yet it still include the Kyrie at the beginning and prayers to Christ at the end. Also, it is a prayer the Church gives and dictates for such use in that place. Very different from choosing to insert a Salve during the Communion rite.
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    PaixGioiaAmor, Liam is correct. He is asking the right question: Who is being praised? Who is the object or the prayer? At communion time, only God should be praised and prayed to.


    Paul Ford, that is simply incorrect. I would suggest looking at the graduale romanum, and studying the communions, and what they mean [the translations]. for instance, look at the communion antiphon for the feast of st. john the beloved disciple [1962 missal]. you will find that your statement is incorrect....
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,377
    Of course this does not reflect 'official' Church teaching about whom it is appropriate to address at the mass, but I have noticed that our Lady is routinely invoked at various points of the mass when a priest adds the Ave Maria here and there ad libitum - often as an addendum to the Prayers of the Faithful.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    The addition of the Ave to the General Intercessions was a postconciliar innovation of the late Abp Dwyer of Birmingham (UK), an innovation that has been much criticized for the reasons earlier stated.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    More typical has been the entrusting of prayers to the BVM in the third person as part of the collect addressed in the second person to the Trinity, et cet.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 860
    BachLover2, I bridle a little bit at your suggestion that I study the communions of the GR. And your point about the "Exiit sermo inter fratres" IS?

    This is called a gospel communion, a citation of the gospel of the day, sung with verses of Psalm 88V (89Heb) in the 1994 GR.

    [2] misericordias Domini in aeternum cantabo in generationem et generationem adnuntiabo veritatem tuam in ore meo
    [4] disposui testamentum electis meis iuravi David servo meo
    [5] usque in aeternum praeparabo semen tuum et aedificabo in generationem et generationem sedem tuam
    [6] confitebuntur caeli mirabilia tua Domine etenim veritatem tuam in ecclesia sanctorum
    [8] Deus qui glorificatur in consilio sanctorum magnus et horrendus super omnes qui in circuitu eius sunt
    [20] tunc locutus es in visione sanctis tuis et dixisti posui adiutorium in potentem exaltavi electum de plebe mea
    [21] inveni David servum meum in oleo sancto meo linui eum
    [22] manus enim mea auxiliabitur ei et brachium meum confirmabit eum
    [25] et veritas mea et misericordia mea cum ipso et in nomine meo exaltabitur cornu eius

    Taken together, this is a celebration of the Lord's faithfulness to Saint John and his setting John apart for a special vocation. The Lord said to John, "What if I want him to remain until I come?" And John 21:22 is understood: "What concern is it of yours? You follow me."

    So does God do for us in the Eucharist on Saint John's Day. He shows He is faithful to us and strengthens us to answer His call. The Lord is saying to us: "What if I want you to remain until I come?" And John 21:22 is understood: "What concern is it of yours? You follow me."

    Is John invoked? Is John praised?

    See James W. McKinnon, The Advent Project: The Later Seventh-Century Creation of the Roman Mass Proper (Berkeley, CA: The University of California Press, 2000; 0-520-22198-2), 326–355, for his discussion of the genius and genesis of the gospel-communion.
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    ...again, Paul, the examples are simply too numerous to include here. i was just pointing out that the following statement is incorrect:

    PaixGioiaAmor, Liam is correct. He is asking the right question: Who is being praised? Who is the object or the prayer? At communion time, only God should be praised and prayed to.


    ...please see [e.g.] gregorian missal pages 660, 654, & 678, and this becomes patently obvious.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    I am not a purist about who may be praised at communion time. On the other hand, BachLover2's three examples are not quite on a par with the Salve Regina.

    One is "Beatam me dicent", which we sang on Sunday: it's not praise directed to Our Lady, it's her praise of how God has blessed her. It's a quote from the Magnificat. But then Paul's already mentioned that it's fine to sing the Magnificat at communion.

    Another is "Beata viscera": this is a little stronger, but it doesn't address Our Lady as the Salve does.

    The third example: "Gloriosa dicta sunt de te, Maria...", finally is something to talk about, as it does address our Lady. But even here we are just back to echoing the Magnificat: "...quia fecit tibi magna qui potens est."

    So it would seem that praising our Lady, during or post Communion, is OK, provided that we refer to her indirectly as in Beata viscera.
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    At Saint Edward, Newark, CA we sing the seasonal Marian antiphon after the Blessing & Dismissal are sung. The
    Celebrant, Deacon & servers stand facing the altar during the singing of the first part, then genuflect & process
    during the conclusion of the chant. Each week, we hear a few more people in the pews singing, when we do the
    Tonus simplex.
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    I got this idea from Notre Dame Paris. See some of their masses on KTO-TV, the Archdiocesan television station in
    Paris.
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