Issues at Mass
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I know that we hear that people complain about the music at Mass...and complain to us about the length of sermons rather than going to the source. People complain when they are not given access to the Blood of Christ at Communion.

    Of all of these complaints, why do we have to put up with clergy who side with the people who know nothing and only want to be uplifted and entertained?

    I realize that many of us are dealing with priests who were educated at seminaries with very light-weight teaching and there are young priests coming along who know better. They are having an influence as associate pastors, but will not come into power just yet.

    This whole middle of the road do-the-music-they-like most of the time would make sense only if they preached the same way....well, yes, you shouldn't do this, but Rome, well, they are in a different country and do not understand Americans/insert-your-own-nationality. Of course, I know that some do.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    And then there are those whose efforts to create a choir and solemn worship are "rewarded" by being suddenly out of work and the choir abandoned...there is a parish in Cincinnati with links to their site found through Google that, after 18 years with the same director and trips to Rome were suddenly fired, along with other staff members by the new pastor.
  • kathyf
    Posts: 21
    The priests who do this are wimpy.

    Speaking of priests, I had no idea that there was anything like a new priest blessing you and then you kiss his hand. I got to do this a week ago Sunday. Ahhh! And this particular new priest is the Bomb! We have a new generation coming in, praise the Lord! Wait 10 years.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    After ten years of being beaten down by congregations and, even worse, other priests and their bishop, some of these will wimp out, but hopefully there will be shining stars who can wait it out. There are already some shining stars out there.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    "I had no idea that there was anything like a new priest blessing you and then you kiss his hand."

    I didn't know they did this in the West! In the East it is a matter of course, although Protestant-convert priests often get squeamish about it. I've had the instinctual urge to greet Roman Catholic priests like that but I know I would just confuse the heck out of everybody around...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Protestant-convert Orthodox Priests getting squeamish about their hands being kissed may be the source of nightmares for some. Deservedly so. Escaping from church basement parish dinners of casseroles to be faced with this. Oh, the HORROR! THE HORROR!

    Instinctual?
  • Joseph Mansfield
    Posts: 113
    The kissing thing -- here in México it is not unusual for both men and women to kiss a priest´s hands, or his cheek, just any old time. Why do it on ordination day and never again? For that matter, why just priests? Men embrace men, and women women, as an ordinary form of greeting, almost as common as a handshake. On an appropriate occasion, say at the funeral home when a man´s loved one has died, his buddy may embrace him tightly and at length, and they might kiss on the cheek or neck. Likewise women with women -- but not a man and a woman unless they are married or close kin. I find the customs very comfortable, until I go to the States and have to remember to restrain myself. The people up there just don´t understand.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    I believe that the custom of kissing the palms of the hands of the newly ordained came about to honor the chrism poured into them at the end of the ordination rite.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    And the cloth that is used to absorb the chrism on his hands is then given to his mother.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Noel, sometimes I find your posts very cryptic. What I was saying is that it is my instinct to, when I see a priest in clerical garb--especially the cassock--to go up and ask for a blessing, then kiss his hand. We kiss priests' hands because they are the hands that give us holy communion. I didn't know there are special traditions about that concerning newly-ordained priests.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    It's tempting to say that I find your posts very Coptic.

    Why would, pray tell, a protestant become an Orthodox priest and then get squeamish over something that Orthodox do?

    Sort of like a Catholic leaving the priesthood, becoming a Southern Baptist preacher and then saying, "Well, you don't need to be dunked, I'll just sprinkle some water on your forehead and that'll be fine."

    But back to the subject:

    "I didn't know there are special traditions about that concerning newly-ordained priests."

    Roman or otherwise?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    and then you kiss his hand

    All the other kisses were stopped. For context, recall the timeline, and see ...

    1962-oct-11 (thru Dec 8) Vatican II Session 1
    1963-sep-29 (thru Dec 4) Vatican II Session 2
    1963-dec-04 Sacrosanctum Concilium
    1964-jan-25 Sacram Liturgiam (establishes Consilium)
    1964-sep-14 (thru Nov 21) Vatican II Session 3

    1964-sep-26 Inter Oecumenici (SC Instruction 1)
    http://www.adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Eh. Inter oecumenici was issued as guidance for the post-Sacrosanctum Concilium revision of liturgical rites. (Maybe it's inoperative now, since the job is long done?) It doesn't address customs about kissing the hand after a blessing outside of a liturgical service.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    "Why would, pray tell, a protestant become an Orthodox priest and then get squeamish over something that Orthodox do?"

    It's not only protestant but also an American thing... sometimes it is really hard to run against your cultural upbringing, no matter how much your mind accepts an idea.

    "Roman or otherwise?"

    any kind. I think it's sweet.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Noel, One does not have to travel as far as Cinncinati to have a good musician fired. And the music now coming from Glory and Praise. It took only two weeks.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    One entire cathedral music program is now being led by a person who, three years ago, was surprised to be asked by her then pastor, to be director of music, surprised as she said in her own words, "I can't read music."
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    '...as she said in her own words, "I can't read music"'. And! A cathedral yet! This could only happen in the Catholic Church. I have seen ads for Catholic musicians in The American Organist which actually after going through all the catalogue of 'people skills' stated as an afterthought 'ablility to read music helpful'.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    chonak, I might suggest that it IS operative, because its effects are still at work!

    I was trying to drive home the point that kissing the hands of the newly-ordained
    would have been the first of many such kisses. With all the other kisses removed,
    everyone thinks it is something invented for the special day rather than a vestige.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Noel
    But she is at least Catholic. I well remember people arguing on this forum that one could not be a Director of Music in the RC unless one were, indeed Catholic.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    It is almost impossible to be employed at Episcopal Cathedrals and the high-church Episcopal parishes unless you are Episcopal, for the same reason.

    It's not just the Catholics.

    If you are NOT from the denomination, then the only way you get hired is if you are very, very well-trained and have abilities above the other prospects who are of the denomination.
  • Jeffrey CogginsJeffrey Coggins
    Posts: 360
    I agree with Noel ... at the beginning of my career, I applied at a Lutheran church for an organist position (just accompanying). During my interview, they asked what religion I was, and they were not thrilled to hear me tell them I was Catholic (they immediately went into how the two religions argue over whose calendar is correct). Other than that, my interview was fine (sight-read, played a prepared piece, etc.).

    Weeks after my interview, they were still looking for an organist. In the end, I realized it had nothing to do with my talent since I was more than musically qualified. They didn't hire me because I wasn't Lutheran.

    Thank God.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    But I have worked in many denominations- from Episcopal, to the Military base Chapel-both Catholic and Protestant, Methodist, and even once for a short time Christian Church. And as a paid singer in Presbyterian churches also.
  • kathyf
    Posts: 21
    please you guys. Don't go giving your awesome talent to the other churches. Stay playing in the Catholic church. We need you here! Ok, pay your bills if you need to but when you get them paid come back.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Today's advice from the Anglican side to an Anglican going to an RC Cathedral, from a gentleman in Canada on another list, responding to this email from the new guy, seen on a list I subscribe to:


    Having spent my entire professional life in the Anglican tradition, I may be requesting some help as I try to find my way in this exciting, but slightly unfamiliar, landscape!

    Responding from Canada:
    Congratulations! Do they provide a cot in the choir loft? Major shift in work load!

    Given the traditional focus of the parish, you might want look closely at the music and liturgical lists of Westminster Cathedral: they sing a broad range within the English cathedral repertoire and have very imaginative programming for recitals outside the liturgy. It would also be instructive to go for a few days to the National Shrine in Washington and see how a mainline American Catholic cathedral works.

    I’ve known a number of Anglicans who have had troubled times in Catholic parishes. The biggest difference is that the musician is utterly at the whimsy of the clergy who have line veto on every decision, even those on which they have signed off. It is not uncommon for a visiting bishop to arbitrarily cut all the choir music with 10 minutes’ notice. Given the importance awarded to music in this cathedral parish, you need to find out who is the “cardinal patron” of the music program: hopefully, it is the head honcho. Long-range planning and frequent debriefings meetings with this cleric will go far towards building a mutually professional relationship. When the new English texts go into force, you and the monsignor need to be on the same page. A sudden change of leadership could see the whole infrastructure swept away. The horror stories are legion.

    Some musicians get caught in the current internecine warfare over rites and musical styles: it’s positively Anglican across the Tiber these days. The promoters of the Latin 1962 Missal/Missa Antiquuor rite are often pitted against the those who want the modern Latin Novo Ordo mass. Be precise in your terminology — the “Latin Mass” means very different things to different people -- and be sensitive to the clergy’s difficulties in balancing competing demands.

    As much fun as it is to do Palestrina and Mozart masses liturgically with professional musicians, I would hope that you would balance that repertoire with strong repertoire from across the spectrum. If the cathedral is like most Catholic parishes, the Saturday mass has the highest attendance and is served the poorest musically. If the diet is Haugen-Haas, take the music seriously and make sure that you have good professional musicians to lead. This constituency often feels neglected by parish musicians and can undercut all your work. They will not be impressed by the Kodaly Mass.

    So too the volunteer choir. It’s easy to work with professionals, but engaging amateurs requires another skill set. I am always annoyed when I see so-called ‘parish choirs” which have four paid singers doing all the heavy lifting with the other amateurs, many of which probably don’t read music, left to founder. They deserve better than dull unison music; give them South Africa and Taizé.

    Sorry if this sounds presumptuous -- a bad musical Polonius -- I’m sure you’ll bring our good-natured sensibility to the endeavour.
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