Where do the Alleluia verses come from?
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I had a bit of a surprise today... I've been using my Gregorian Missal as a primary source for my Alleluia verses, partially because they have good translations between the Latin and the English. When I first started doing this, I'm pretty sure that I checked to make sure that they were the same as the verses that my congregation was used to hearing out of Breaking Bread but it appears I haven't been checking. This year, all the verses are different!

    The G.M. doesn't differentiate the Alleluia verses between years A, B, and C, although it does for the readings and the Responsorial Psalm. I guess I assumed that these didn't change, but apparently they do.

    Does anybody know why the Gregorian Missal is different? And what is a more authoritative source which would also have reliable English translations?

    Carl
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 858
    In the 1970 lectionary one was free to select from an assortment of seasonally appropriate alleluia verse texts. in the 1998 lectionary these choices were made for one from the same assortment.

    The Gregorian Missal is based on the the older version of the lectionary.
  • Adam Bartlett
    Posts: 533
    Carl,

    The alleluia verses in your Breaking Bread book are going to match exactly the ones found in the Lectionary. Like the Entrance and Communion antiphons found in the Missal it seems lamentable that these texts were largely not taken from the corpus of the Gregorian repertory so that there could be a greater unity between the official books of Gregorian chant and the Missal/Lectionary texts. But this is just the way that it is for now.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Thanks, gents! I have at various times attempted to translate English verses back into Latin, but my language skills are ... minimal. And trying to look up corresponding verses in the Latin Bible when the English is actually a paraphrase, well, I don't trust that I don't end up with totally mangled Latin.

    On the other hand, I've been using these G.M. verses for at least a couple of years and nobody has remarked one way or the other. So maybe I'll just leave well enough alone.

    Unless someone has a source for the Latin translations of these Alleluias?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/1998USL.htm

    They are here...
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Thanks, Noel! Now do I just look up those verses in the Latin Bible and hope for the best? Hmm....
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    Re: Latin Bible, here's something you might want to know.

    The OF Latin officially is supposed to come from the modern Vatican translation into Latin, which is mostly only available on the Vatican's website. It's called the Nova Vulgata, and it's a bit disconcerting if you are used to the Gregorian chant verses from the older Vulgate; the wording and vocabulary is changed A LOT. Anyway, I'm not sure if they actually got around to using it for Mass readings and antiphons and all that.

    The older Vulgate you should use is the Clementine Vulgate, which is online here.

    The version usually found online being described as the Vulgate is a critical edition worked out by German Protestant scholars. Most of the wording is the same, but sometimes you get some differences in spelling and even verses retained and included, so it's best to know what you're dealing with.

    And of course, not all Alleluia verses come from the Bible, per se.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 858
    If you give me a few days, I can scan the pages from the Ordo Lectionum Missae which has the official Latin versions of these verses.
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    dr. ford, how does your statement affect what is in our disposable WLP missals? are they identical?

    In the 1970 lectionary one was free to select from an assortment of seasonally appropriate alleluia verse texts. in the 1998 lectionary these choices were made for one from the same assortment.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 858
    All publishers are required to print the alleluia verse selected in the new lectionary.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    @Maureen

    Yes, the Clementine version of the Vulgate is used (de facto at least) in the EF Roman Missal for the readings, but not in many the chants. Plus there are textual issues with that version which have long been recognized by Catholic scholars. The critical edition you mention attempts to rectify these problems, as does the version I have edited by Catholic scholars in the early pat of the 20th century (which keeps the customary "ecclesiastical" spelling).

    There are any number of readings in the Clementine version which have been universally recognized as flawed (e.g. the so-called Comma Johanneum.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Dr. Ford,

    Are these the only options for each Sunday? GARNIER ALLELUIAS

    image
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Wow, that would be wonderful, Paul!

    This community can be wonderful.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    I learn something almost every day I read this board. No joke.

    So y'all are doing one real spiritual work of mercy... teaching the ignorant! :)
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