Biebl Ave Maria
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    I noticed the Biebl Ave Maria on a couple of threads here. I hosted a choir at my church last weekend (www.seraphimsingers.org) who sang the Biebl as part of an all-Marian program, lauding Biebl as "one of the greatest German choral composers of the twentieth century" in their program notes.

    Choirs love singing it. Audiences love hearing it. But is there anyone else out there who regards this as a rather simplistic composition? And has anyone heard any other works of Biebl which would have earned him the superlatives which the Seraphim Singers and so many others have heaped upon him? Educate me. Or agree with me that "Biebl ain't all that, yo."
  • Randolph Nichols
    Posts: 398
    Michael,

    As you know, I write most of the program notes for The Seraphim Singers. For your church concert someone must have altered my notes because originally the line was "one of the most respected figures in German choral music." That respect is due to many things. Among others, his ability to reforge a career after enduring the hardships of being a prisioner of war and that he directed much of his compositional efforts to grassroots organizations. The 'Ave Maria' was written for a chorus of firemen. As a Harvard alum, you can share some pride that the Harvard Glee Club made the first recording of this work.

    Do I think Biebl is a great choral composer No. He's a Germanic variation of John Rutter. Audiences take to it immediately, but it just doesn't wear well after repeated exposure. Enjoy it for what it is.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Sorry, Randolph, I must've misquoted your notes. I know, I know, you've told me a thousand times not to exaggerate.

    Interesting tidbit about the Harvard Glee Club -- I think the first time I heard the Biebl "Ave" was at one of their concerts. I must confess, I liked it at first -- then again, I also liked their arrangement of "O Danny Boy."

    Anyhow, does anyone know other Biebl works?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    It's pretty, but I get really tired of the refrain after a bit.
  • JulesVanNuffel
    Posts: 126
    Hi, Olbash.

    I find the "chant parts" that Biebl wrote rather simple and boring.

    It is by no means a masterwork --- it is just a pretty piece.
  • hortense2003
    Posts: 1
    I love it. however I am a beginner on the organ and have a hard time trying to play it. Is there sheet music for it for beginner's on the Roland 90 Organ?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Does anyone still believe that the performance as realized by living human beings remains a deciding factor in the aesthetic worthiness of most musical compositions?
    To what natural good is it to dismiss one setting of a common text through assigning "lesser" adjectives' worth from a subjective look on the page only, rather than by searching out the intrinsic gold hidden underneath. In those circumstances, one could likewise dismiss all settings of the AM as "lesser."
    I'm not putting the Biebl on a pedastal; but I'd suggest listening to the Dale Warland Singers' recent release of it on LUX ARUMQUE CD before declaring it merely "pretty."
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Charles, hmmm... got to disagree with you on that one. I've heard the Chanticleer recording about a bazillion times and I still think its a B-grade piece at best. Exactly what are you arguing? Do you think it's a piece on the level of Part's Magnificat? Listen, there's nothing wrong with B-grade literature. Rutter has made quite a name for himself with it. It's nice, accessible, and worthy of the sacred space. I think most of us are just saying that the refrain gets rather tiresome after a while.

    Happy Easter, my friend!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    And back to you, my Sunshine State Friend!
    I thought my points were self-evident, though. I did not extol the Biebl as end all/be all of AM's. But consider one of your own faves, the Arcadelt (which I love as well.) You may rightly deem it A-grade literature, but also recognize that its success is truly dependent upon a beautiful performance (however you define that.)
    I'm also a little surprised that you've consigned ALL of Rutter to the B Bin. I know that as an academic, a great portion of Rutter's penchant for hooks and his Bacharach-like vocabulary won't sit well as you look at them on and off the page. And I can attest that I had the same prejudice about his whole catalogue....until..... I heard his REQUIEM at Loyola Marymount in LA in 1988 under the maestro Salamunovich. Suddenly those formerly irritating hooks (I-7-5 etc.) were couched in as complete an artistic rendering as one could imagine. I still won't do his GLORIA and a bunch of others, and it drives me bonkers that so many church directors still think that his "For the Beauty" is the cat's meow. But I don't feel it justified to consign him to the commercial bin alone. John Leavitt, fer sure.
    Also, I don't think that it's kosher to place the Rutters on scales balanced by the Parts. I might be more comfortable if the Rutter scale was checked by the Tavener scale because they seem to compose with similar raison d'etre's. Part's in another league.
    Finally, in this vein, I would think that Biebl's legacy reminds me of the contemporary Norwegian, Trond Kverno, a local working stiff church composer whose music taps into a particular vein that is worthy of the sacred space, and then perhaps also the concert stage.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Charles,

    No, I don't put the Arcadelt in the "A" category. I like it as an easy entry into polyphony. Frankly if I had the horses, I would rarely sing it. I like Rutter's "For the Beauty" too. It's perhaps a B+. I reserve the A's for the greats and the occasional great work of the not-so-greats. The Requiem is better than his fellow countryman Lloyd-Webber, but I suspect there was a different purpose in mind for the latter. I guess the whole discussion really revolves around the popularity of the Biebl. My point is that it is not great art, but pretty good craft, not really ranking as a masterwork of craft. In fact most Renaissance polyphony would fit that same category. The Renaissance composer, for the most part, considered himself a master craftsman. Only in later years has some of it been placed in the category of high art. Same with the sculptors and painters of the day. I am not turning my nose up at any of that good or fine craft.
  • lupusgrex
    Posts: 6
    Has anyone seen/reviewed these two editions from Kevin Mayhew?
    Latin Motets - Book 2 by Selected and edited by Colin Mawby
    Price now: £9.99 (15.95 US) A performing edition

    Latin Motets - Book 1 by Selected and edited by Colin Mawby
    Price now: £9.99 (15.95 US) A Performing Edition

    Between the two books I think I counted 69 motets. My hope is that these will assist in a fledgling group.

    Lupusgrex
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I don't know them buy I would be inclined to put a great deal of faith in Mr Mawby's choices.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    Re Beibel:
    He was a German composer who somehow ended up in the usa during the war, and he was a pow in of all places: Battle Creek Michigan. I do know that there are a number of other choral works, including masses, and also organ works, including a sonata for cello and organ. There was an article in one of the organ magazines on him a few years ago.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    Thanks, ghmus7, I'll look for that.
  • Dolf
    Posts: 1
    I like to be touched by music. And the simplicity of Biebl's "Ave Maria" allows to touch the listener. Years ago in my International Chamber Choir Competition in Marktoberdorf/Germany we heard a good interpretation of the male voice version by the male section of Portland state University Chorus with Bruce Browne. In our last competition we had a female version sung by one of the best Girl's choirs at least of Europe, the Pro Musica Girl's Choir from Nyireghaza in Hungary (north of Debrecen). You might listen to it in Youtube at the following address: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=3oLukHRPb5g
    Have fun with it.
    BTW I'm the Founder and Director of a "Festival Music Sacra International" in Bavaria/Germany. This Festivals combines music groups from all the 5 major world religions every second year. Of you are interested there is a lot of films in youtube and you might find information at www.modfestivals.org
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