Pope to Celebrate Mass in Latin in Britain
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    News indeed but can Pray Tell be correct that this is the first time since Vatican II?
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Don't know if my reply will appear with the new commentary engine, but I wrote that the Ordinary to be used at the Newman beatification is in English with the new translations. Not sure if that's news or not, but it's interesting.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    It's not inconceivable that both languages might be used (in addition to the Greek and Hebrew). Arguably, that would be in accord with the vision of the Council Fathers.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    BTW - it wouldn't be the first time since 1973 that the new form has been celebrated in its native languages, but if the report is true it would be the first such Papal occasion in the UK. Mind you, there's only been one other Papal visit in that time, so that would be an odd interpretation to put on Pray, Sniff's claim.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    Pray, Sniff's Hon. Prop. has since clarified his point, which is since that the Mass of Paul VI was promulgated, masses that have been part of Papal visits have been celebrated in the vernaculars of the countries visited.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,374
    And the "Pray, Sniff" contributes to the conversation how?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Pray provided the news, and it is normal to hat tip the source.

    So sorry about comment delays! I love the new engine but sick of its moderating fussiness!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,410
    (Not very side) note...
    The Pray, Tell blog is run by a Benedictine priest who is a champion of Gregorian Chant and (I understand) a personal friend of several CMAA members, including (I understand) Jeffrey Tucker. (He's also my friend on FaceBook, and my brother was one of his students).

    Even if he were not a priest, and not a personal friend of people here, referring to his work as "Pray, Sniff" would be tasteless and vulgar. That he is both of those things makes it also tactless and impious.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,713
    Oh, Adam, it's a rough Internet out there.

    But I think it's overreaching to suggest that it's impious to make fun of a priest's blog; or that it's vulgar and tasteless to portray its attitudes as haughty. (I assume that's what "sniff" conveys -- I don't happen to read that blog myself.)

    But your kind thoughts for Fr. Ruff, who does so much good and is a friend to so many here, are admirable.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,374
    Adam Wood

    Thank you for catching the intent of my question. "Pray, Sniff" as an insult pairs well with the accusation that certain people are so idle they create the loudness in favor of more traditional liturgy online (which insult I have also complained about).

    It's not even clever. It's puerile behavior. And it stains the one making it more than the one against whom it is made.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,364
    I, too, think that smart aleck remarks should at least be clever.

    I have a very high regard for Fr. Ruff, but am continually shocked at his blog. It's the oddest thing, how the same individual can, as a practitioner, strive to recover the deep strong heritage of beauty, and meanwhile, as a theoretician, champion the flimsiest liturgical thought du jour.
  • Kathy, yes, I have wondered the same thing. I would love to sit down with him sometime and chat.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,374
    Kathy

    I suspect that what seems to be flimsy to you is a thought process that you are coming at from a different angle than Fr Ruff. Fr Ruff is coming at things from within a lived experience of a Benedictine communion that inherited a great tradition, but a tradition that was also evolving in the generations before (even before Vatican II) and of his entrance into the order. He has concepts, but they are not necessarily organized in the same order in which you might organize them or perceive them to be organized in the liturgical documents. I would be more careful of thinking his thinking is flimsy. What it is not is brittle. There are many people who come at these questions with a strong but fairly brittle ideological bent, and Fr Ruff is not one of them.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,364
    Liam,

    What surprises me is precisely his brittle ideological bent.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,374
    About what in particular? Because he defies the usual segregation of positions one finds elsewhere.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,374
    For example, on translations, he's not a fan of (1) the current translation, (2) the 1998 translations (from what he has said, it seems he would prefer that some of the 1998 work not have been discarded entirely, but instead revised significantly), and (3) the pending translation.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    "Pray, Sniff" is a reference to Fr. Ruff's attitude to many Catholics who think differently to him, at least as evidenced by his Blog (I'm sure that outside of it he's the nicest chap). It sums up his style as pithily as I can manage. If you'd like an example, just look at his response some time ago to Jeffrey Tucker's honest and exploratory musings on active participation and singing at Mass. Patronising and intellectually lazy doesn't do it justice.

    Oh dear - I should have stuck to pithy.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,364
    He's so fired up against what he considers to have been an unjust handling of the process that he cannot say anything positive about the new translation. It's not even about liturgy. It's about ecclesiology.

    I used to think that he was an independent thinker with great taste in music and an asceticism of peace. Now he seems like a run of the mill progressive, with rather sharp teeth. In my view that's a straight downhill slide from intriguing to ho-hum. He has said he has changed in the last 5 years (the subject was abbatial ceremony). What has changed him?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,374
    Kathy

    The process of late has not been pretty. The radio silence in some quarters about the current post-recognitio fiddling doesn't make it any prettier. Fr Ruff's concerns are both principled and practical, and more focused on the more recent aspects of the process than the 1990s wars (by contrast, there are others whose aggrievement is more obviously traced to the 1990s; eg, Paul Inwood, who manages to play progressive when it suits him but becomes terribly establishmentarian when his guild and network appear threatened - Mr Inwood and Fr Ruff should not be conflated or confused).
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    Liam,

    You're right to say we should distinguish between Fr. Ruff and Mr. Inwood. One has cast unpleasant aspersions on the moral integrity of those who disagree with his views on the liturgy. The other has given him a platform to do so.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 749
    Oh, let's get back on topic. I promise not to mention that sad place again on this thread.

    It will be good to hear both the vernacular and the Church's own languages in the Papal liturgies, if that's what's planned. What a marvellous example it would be of the Council's vision.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    By all accounts, that does seem to be what's planned. I'm looking forward to it, too.