Women belong in the...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Women belong in the choir loft, directing the choir, as proven today by MeeAe Cecilia Nam as she conducted her Beginning Choral Studies Choir singing Giuseppe Ottavio Pitoni's CANTATA DOMINE with verve and flair.

    Then Arlene Oost-Zinner too proved that you do not need to be a man to master chant when she led an extremely melismatic Ave Maria (which translates to mean that it's not the one we all know, but after hearing it we should) possesing soaring melodic lines, etched with her masterful conducting.

    It's probably not politically correct to say this, but this week has proven that women can conduct as well or better than men, as if anyone doubted that fact.

    For those not here in Pittsburgh, you need to understand that all the choirs sing in this large church from different parts of the main floor, spread out around the building, flocking like hungry sparrows under the watchful eye of a hawk....meaning that while we are scurrying, we are also trying to maintain decorum...to the place the next chant or motet will be sung. Imagine St. Peter's filled with wandering tourists without the chattering, dropping of umbrellas and all, moving but polite and reverent. You've got the picture.

    So, there are no choir risers. And in most places the director stands on the same floor level.

    When this happens, and since there are so many people dressed in all different kinds and colors of clothing, it is very, very hard to see who is conducting.

    But, when you have stars of chant and choral conducting present, it should be easy to tell when they are at the podium and the truth is, that hasn't happened here.

    Here, since sometimes it is hard to see who is conducting, and without a program, it is very, very hard to tell who is conducting. That's how good ALL the directors have been, without exception. If you can't tell who is conducting because it all sounds wonderful, well, that says something, doesn't it?

    Today's most impressive presentation award has to go to Arlene Oost-Zinner for the tone colors of the Ave Maria.

    [to those that find unaccompanied singing boring and colorless, especially when chant is sung, sitting through this performance might make you begin to wonder what else you have been missing all of your life.]

    While there are arguments that chant should be accompanied, and it can be when necessary, there are also extant piano accompaniments for the Bach Unaccompanied Cello Suites. They are worthless, since Bach, as writers of chant did as well, wrote melodies that in the rich acoustics of a church or other resonant building suggest or even force harmonies upon your ears as sounds that are played echo back. Chant and the unaccompanied suites are both written this way, so that complex chords are suggested to the ear, supporting the melodic line without forcing into a structured setting like composed accompaniments would.

    Organ builders with brains between their ears say that the best stop on an organ is the room it is in. Sung chant too is further adorned when sung in a resonant building.

    The performance of all the music the Byrd by Wilko Brouwers was deep, very deep and full of rich harmonies. The strong dissonances made the consonant endings even more impressive, leaving a consonant sound lingering in the building as if a hive of God's happiest bees were closing up shop for the night with a final beat of their wings.

    Or maybe they were angels?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Help me out here. Who has been doubting this fact?

    Piano accompaniments for the cello suites? It's bad enough that I now know this, but I hope I never have the opportunity to hear them...
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    As a violist who spent countless hours locked in a practice room learning these for recitals, I could not agree more...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    There is still prejudice among people, both Catholic and Protestant, about women in music. It's wrong.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Michael O'ConnorCommentTime51 minutes ago
    "Help me out here. Who has been doubting this fact?"


    I must be hanging around the right people. In all my years, I have not once encountered prejudice against women musicians. Granted, there are some obnoxious people in music, as in every other field. But that has nothing to do with gender.
  • Ryan MurphyRyan Murphy
    Posts: 79
    The prejudice may stem from this:

    "On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.

    Finally, only men of known piety and probity of life are to be admitted to form part of the choir of a church, and these men should by their modest and devout bearing during the liturgical functions show that they are worthy of the holy office they exercise. It will also be fitting that singers while singing in church wear the ecclesiastical habit and surplice, and that they be hidden behind gratings when the choir is excessively open to the public gaze."

    --Excerpt from Motu Proprio of Pope Pius X, 1903.

    I'm certainly not qualified to offer commentary on this, but I'm sure someone out in the forum is. I'd love to hear your opinion.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    .
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As much as I admire Pius X, and I do admire him greatly, he's been dead for many years now. Church laws and regulations have changed considerably since his time. They were changed by his legitimate successors who had the same authority to make changes that he possessed.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Not only that, these words have a history rooted in certain flawed understandings and ambitions of the Cecilian movement in Germany. There were indults granted immediately after this document, and this particular part was ignored throughout the world in any case. Note here that by choir, the Pope was referring to an ecclesiastical choir, a quasi-clerical office. It didn't have any implications for a lay choir in the loft.
  • Ryan MurphyRyan Murphy
    Posts: 79
    Interesting, Jeffrey. Thanks for sharing. That passage has always seemed rather irrationally strict to me.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I wish people read Pius XII as much as Pius X.
    The Church and her legislation on liturgy didn't freeze in 1903.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    I agree with Singing Mum. Let's hurry up and get Pius XII canonized. Maybe people will read him then.

    To sing in Wilko Brower's chant choir at the Colloquium was to experience "the incredible lightness of being." Quelle joie!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Regarding the accompaniments for Bach solo suites, you may also be familiar with Edvard Grieg's accompaniments for second piano for Mozart's piano sonatas. Talk about gilding the lily . . . some of them are pretty interesting, actually - but also completely unnecessary.

    As for where women (and their voices belong), I personally would much rather listen to a grown woman singing with a mature, trained voice, than the piping of a host of choirboys. If the singer is Singing Mum (bad pun alert), that goes treble.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    I'm with Yurodivi. Having lived in UK for a number of years, I used to pine to hear real women singing in choirs. Even the women over there sound like boys b/c it is that country's ideal choral sound. I think most Americans would have a different preference. I am not knocking Britain or the choral tradition there. If I could I would go back and live in the Cotswolds forever.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    I think we hashed out the Pius X thing on other forums. In the case of the EF of the Mass, I agree that only men should be admitted to the sanctuary in place of a liturgical choir. If a choir is mixed, 2 inches outside the sanctuary should be just fine. Even better, the group could sing from the loft, which may be better for the voices.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    "that goes treble."

    Ouch!
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Don't say I didn't warn you, Kathy!
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Yurodivi, you are too kind, and too funny! I share your feelings about boy sops vs. women sops. There is more maturity and artistry in the voice, etc. I think some directors think only of the wobbly soprano or the dramatic soprano (which is fantastic for the right rep, of course). There are as many shades and timbres as there are sopranos, and if one looks one can usually find a few light and yet rich voices in every town.

    I wish I weren't so busy, I'd write a top ten list of why I love singing in the loft... Primarily I love the ability to sweat, cast stern looks at wandering basses, and futz with my hat or veil without most of the faithful seeing me. Call me a practical gal. :)

    Women in classical music, yet alone sacred music, is a funny thing. I distinctly remember being the only female or one of two in upper level comp labs and some graduate theory courses. Though I sense sexism very rarely, music remains a male-dominated profession. Seems God had a reason for giving me three brothers and no sisters, and now a husband, three sons and no daughters- yet. I kinda like men and know them enough to be surrounded by them all the time.

    So many women in the CMAA give me hope, good example, and make me feel at home in this vocation within a vocation. AOZ, MJ, Kathy, Susan Treacy, G, Kathy R, Wendy, the list goes on. Overall, its an exciting time to be a female sacred musician.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    It's also an exciting time to be a male sacred musician, too. If this pope can just last enough years, I think we will see some very good changes.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Interesting observation. These days, college music programs are dominated by female students, which reflects college enrollment overall. My music history classes are regularly 60-70% female.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    MA, Except in TN
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Donna, that depends on one's definition of "exciting." No doubt being thrown to the wolves is exciting, in its way. It certainly concentrates the mind.
  • Ryan MurphyRyan Murphy
    Posts: 79
    "If this pope can just last enough years"

    I hope he celebrates an EF Mass from the high altar in St. Peter's, and soon!
  • Jeff Culbreath
    Posts: 30
    "Note here that by choir, the Pope was referring to an ecclesiastical choir, a quasi-clerical office. It didn't have any implications for a lay choir in the loft."

    That's right. I'm satisfied that the question of women participating in a lay choir is entirely settled, both legally and doctrinally.

    However - I do hope that CMAA will re-consider the practice of having women sing the lesson in the Ordinary Form. At least when there are priests, deacons, acolytes and a hundred capable men present at the same liturgy. That seems much more egregiously a violation of both doctrine and immemorial tradition.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I'd suggest, prior to a civil war erupting, that Jeff cite the exact doctrine.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Jeff, I must say that I was absolutely thrilled when this happened. It was beautiful and great. I hope it can continue with every colloquium.
  • Jeff Culbreath
    Posts: 30
    Well, I am sure that most readers here are literate enough to be familiar with St. Paul and the liturgical history of the Church. A woman in the pulpit is sharply, startlingly, and (I think) very consciously and deliberately incongruous with all of it. If Mr. Tucker was thrilled at the novelty, then I am sure that it will, indeed, continue at every colloquium. And I won't complain anymore: the innovation pales in significance when compared with the glory of all else that transpired. But one wonders from whence comes the militancy that insists on this practice.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Well, given the sensitivity of the issue, let's not do a back and forth on the forum. Let's just talk about it sometime when there is a chance (and I hope there are many more!). I understand your point, but I do think you will reconsider your position given the broader context.
  • Jeff Culbreath
    Posts: 30
    "Well, given the sensitivity of the issue, let's not do a back and forth on the forum. Let's just talk about it sometime when there is a chance (and I hope there are many more!)."

    Agreed. I've said my piece. :-)
  • Jeffrey MorseJeffrey Morse
    Posts: 202
    I think the fact that the readings were SUNG is BRILLIANT! So often at the most solemn Masses in the N.O. (take for instance the Solemn Mass of SS Peter and Paul at the Vatican) it is so absolutely underwhelming after Introit, Kyrie, Gloria, and sung collect to have the reading just spoken. Women have been chanting readings (in the Divine Office) for millennia and they are certainly now allowed to be readers at Mass as they were at the SS Peter and Paul Mass at St Peters in the presence of Benedict XVI. If allowed to READ the scriptures, why in heavens say the cannot SING the scriptures? Singing the scriptures gives more reverence to the sacred words and overall to the entire Mass. One may not like the idea that women can read the lessons, and may even argue from the point of view of Tradition, but the fact remains it IS allowed, and while Pope Benedict is showing us again the reverential way to receive communion again (on the knees and on the tongue) I have not noticed him trying to have only male readers at papal Masses. Given the choice of a male READING a lesson at Mass and a woman SINGING the same lesson, I'll take the woman singing anytime. Its splendid to hear the lessons were sung at the colloquium, in this day of throw-away missalettes, anything that gives greater honor to the Word of God should be encouraged and celebrated.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Thank you Jeffrey. All excellent points.
  • Jeff Culbreath
    Posts: 30
    OK ... may I respond to the esteemed Jeffrey Morse? Then I promise to done with this topic on the forum.

    1. I agree, singing is better. That's not being disputed.

    2. The choice is not between a man *reading* and a woman singing, but a man *singing* and a woman singing. At least that is certainly an option at the colloquium.

    3. The fact that women have been singing the Divine Office for centuries in convents full of women does not strike me as relevant. The context in scripture and tradition is always that of a specifically mixed group.

    3. As for giving honor to the Word of God, it would be delicious to hear a lectoress sing 2 Tim 2:11-12 or 1 Cor 14:33-36 someday. :->

    4. The Holy Father allows all kinds of things. He allows female altar servers. And You should see what he allows here at my home parish. So I don't know what this argument brings to the table exactly.

    All done. I really mean it this time. Peace to all.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    In principle, there is nothing amiss in a woman singing one of the lessons at mass. However, I would suggest that in choosing the person who is to sing, careful consideration should be given to matching the reading and the lector or lectress. There is nothing more underwhelming that a woman of delicate voice singing one of the more robust examples from the prophecies or other such (let's say it) very masculine readings. On the other hand, there are certainly readings which might be actually enhanced were they sung by a woman. Some judicious consideration of the message is certainly apt. As for singing the lessons, we always sing all three of them (often with female readers) on solemnities at Walsingham and other Anglican Use parishes. We also always sing them at our masses at St Basil's School of Gregorian Chant. It strikes me as really odd that anyone should think of this as something novel. Of course! It should be commonplace! It is assuredly among the many things implicit in the Church's designation of certain liturgical feasts as 'Solemnities'. Finally, we should not be quibbling about 'read' v. 'sing'. In liturgical language they both mean the same thing (as do 'say' and 'sing') - and what they mean is Not the spoken voice. Finally, did anyone ever hear of an Orthodox priest who could not sing??? Who did not sing the liturgy??? All of it??? When a culture sings, Everybody naturally sings!

    As an aside, concerning 'Oh look! A woman did this!', ' A woman did that!' I think this fashionable and excited calling of attention to a person's gender every time a woman is involved is rather silly, if not patronising - and may be evidence of a reverse gender bias.
  • Jeff Culbreath
    Posts: 30
    Ryan and Mia, thanks for your comments. I think this does need to be discussed somewhere in light of the whole corpus of Catholic teaching, but as Mr. Tucker mentioned, its a sensitive topic and this forum may not be the most suitable place. I'm all for starting an e-mail list for interested parties.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    Other considerations aside... I think that anybody singing the readings needs to do it at a somewhat lower pitch than the lady at the Colloquium used. A bit slower would also have helped a lot, given the resonance, but it was the high pitch that made it not particularly useful as a reading. Beautiful, but unintelligible. (This also applies to a good many men singing in a high voice at the Masses, thanks to the acoustics. There was a very fine line between resonant and prettily muddy.)

    This probably doesn't matter so much at an EF Mass, where nobody expects to make out the whole reading without a missal and/or the homily. But expectations at an OF Mass are different.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    "This probably doesn't matter so much at an EF Mass, where nobody expects to make out the whole reading without a missal and/or the homily. But expectations at an OF Mass are different."

    And this is exactly the problem.

    Why should the expectations of a modern mass be different? They should not be.

    This is the thinking that is prevalent, the thinking that outlaws polyphony. If the words HAVE to be understood, then Benedict would have said that chant needs restored and not mentioned polyphony.

    Lower pitched voices do not carry as well as high pitched voices and are less intelligible as a result. Less intelligible...more musical, always a tradeoff.

    I'd suggest that stopping people coming out of an OF Mass, very , very few could repeat even a sentence or a thought from any of the readings when spoken.

    When we were on a one year cycle of readings, people had a much better chance of understanding the readings when heard, with a three year cycle, forget about it. Too much, too much.
  • ossian1898ossian1898
    Posts: 142
    To me the woman doing the reading was off putting. All week I had been somewhat intrigued by the fact that at least from the pews, there seemed to be no great chasm between the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms. Sure they were somewhat different but the experience was similar (unlike most parishes).

    Then the lady sang the lesson and while I wasn't upset, it was certainly disruptive to my experience. I was thrown back to "Oh, this is the Novus Ordo, that's right..." While I'm not a liturgical-jerk and I understand the situation is what it is in the church right now, what is to stop the CMAA from having female altar servers? How far can it go? Extraordinary Ministers?

    Just some thoughts.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    EMHC's at at Colloquium Mass? That would be something, wouldn't it? Please send video if it ever occurs ;-) There is certainly a forgotten line in Revelation about that, I think ....
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