Episcopal -> Roman -> Anglican Use?
  • Thinking about Donna Swan, I realize there is a Roman priest who was formerly an Episcopalian priest in her diocese. And no Anglican Use parish, but people interested in one.

    Can an Episcopal -> Roman priest celebrate Mass at an Anglican Use parish?

    Can he, a married Roman clergyman, pastor an Anglican Use parish? [not permitted in the RC]

    Would she be qualified to be liturgist and music director in an Anglican Use parish? I would certainly think so, unless there is a prohibition of female liturgists?
  • The priest in question would merely have to petition his local ordinary to found an Anglican Use parish, assuming he has a congregation-in-waiting. There are an appreciable number of former Episcopalian priests who have become Catholic priests who have no interest in the Anglican Use. Also, there are some diocesan bishops (notably, one in California) who stubbornly refuse the Anglican Use in their dioceses, although there are priests and numerous people there who want it. Of course, all this will change when the Anglican Ordinariate becomes a reality, for it will function quite similarly to a Uniat body and not be under or at the suffrance of the Roman ordinary. -- I'm sure that Donna would be competent to be choirmaster at one of our parishes. -- As for 'liturgists' - we don't have those. I can't quite figure out why they seem to have appeared out of nowhere the past several decades, nor why they are needed if a parish has a priest, choirmaster and an acolyte master who know what they are doing. -- As for why we are not embraced in some dioceses, the general feeling is that we are too Catholic, or they don't want to offend the Episcopalians. I must say, though, to be fair, that those places where we do have parishes seem to be very welcoming and appreciative of our presence; this with a genuine interest in the nature of our 'Anglo-Catholicism'. Here in Houston, especially, we could not ask for a more supportive, encouraging, and truly affirmative ordinary than Cardinal-Archbishop di Nardo. He is a true pastor and friend.
  • Makes sense to me.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think the only thing necessary is to form a congregation, then contact the RC bishop. He's been quite open to eastern Catholic churches of different jurisdictions, so he might possibly approve of an Anglican Use parish.
  • Robsc
    Posts: 20
    I wish we could get one of those Anglican Use parishes around here.
  • Robsc - perhaps there is an Eastern Rite parish within a reasonable distance from you? That's where I would be if we didn't have Walsingham here!
  • Robsc
    Posts: 20
    No, the closest Eastern Rite is 90 miles away. I just love the beauty of the Anglican Rites.I wish I could remain Catholic but use the Anglican Rites. Also getting away from the Catholic Liturgy wars would be nice.
    Rob
  • Robsc - There is, of course, nothing to prevent you from using the Anglican Use offices in your daily prayer life. This might help. You can order the Book of Divine Worship from the Anglican Use Society, or from any of our parishes. It contains the offices of morning and evening prayer together with the mass and the wonderful Miles Coverdale psalter. The book is rather hefty, though, since They made us include both rites one and two in it, as well as Coverdale's psalter and the modern one from the '79 BCP. I can appreciate your love of our rites. The language is quite holy, conducive to worshipping God 'in the beauty of holiness'. It is a hallowed speech.
  • Robsc - By the way, where do you live?
  • I wonder how many parishes would find a drop in attendance if the 10:30 Sunday Morning Mass were to be celebrated occasionally in the EF.

    And how big the drop if it were every Sunday?

    There is a hunger for beauty.
  • There would likely not be a drop to speak of in attendance. Still, it would not happen because of 'pastoral concerns' for the handful of grumps and pastor's favoriti who wouldn't like it. Has anyone noticed who is and who is not cared for when 'pastoral concerns' are invoked? I myself would not favour Every Sunday. It is, after all, the Extra-Ordinary Form, and I would not want to suggest that the Ordinary Form is in any way inferior in either language. Too, if the Extraordinary Form became ordinary again one would witness it becoming as sloppy as it most often was when it was the only form. Perhaps a proper (though some would think this not often enough!) balance would be for a Solemn EF liturgy as the principal Sunday mass once each season (perhaps twice in the post-Pentecost season) of the liturgical year. It would thus become a part of the rhythm of parish life and have the familiarity and influence which our Holy Father Benedict desired. Too, it is unfortunate and unhelpful to the cause to place the EF on a plane above the OF, as if we were throwing the OF to the dogs. The OF deserves a better attitude than some have towards it, as well as better treatment and solemnity from those who prefer it.
  • While I strongly prefer the Extraordinary Form, I have experienced many, many awful celebrations of this venerable rite in recent years and months. Ninety-minute Low Masses, howling choirs, inept organ playing, banks of fake flowers, and various forms of grandstanding from the pews all exist on a regular basis in even some long-standing Latin Mass communities. However, while it's no panacea, the EF can still have profound influence on the OF. The Anglican Use will be much the same: laudible and exemplary where well done, disappointing where it's not (which will inevitably occur in some places), and broadly influential. What will be most crucial is to make sure the new Anglican Use congregations are not overly insular and self-referential: it's these qualities that have most compromised the life of some existing EF congregations in this country.
  • DBP makes some good points about familiarity often bringing sloppiness in its wake. I must say, though, that this is a phenomenon which rarely happens in the Anglican world for the simple reason that part and parcel of Anglicanism is the insistence on a certain ethos of solemnity in worship. We are rather like the Orthodox and Eastern Rites in that regard. His concern about insularity is also valid. Let us hope that this does not happen, and that our Roman brethren, liking what they see, will not allow it to happen: insularity can only happen if one is surrounded by walls. I do not see this happening.
  • Robsc
    Posts: 20
    Sebring Florida, Diocese of Venice.
    Rob
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,159
    Well, you really are vox clamantis in deserto, aren't you? The Diocese of Venice Latin Mass ministry (FSSP) serves several locations, but they're all quite long drives.

    A little closer -- about 35 miles from you -- is Holy Spirit Church in Lake Wales (Diocese of Orlando), which has a traditional Latin Mass one Sunday per month: http://www.orlandodiocese.org/parishes/churches/holy_spirit_lakewales.php.

    Once the new Anglican-use ordinariate is established, there may be some communities in Florida entering the Church, as the Anglican Church in America has parishes in several places now, including a cathedral parish in Orlando.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    "Once the new Anglican-use ordinariate is established..."

    Does anyone have any insights or sources for a timeline on this?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,159
    The blog "The Anglo-Catholic" was founded to follow the issue closely.

    So far:
    -- November 2009: the Holy Father issued the document "Anglicanorum Coetibus".
    -- March and April 2010: Anglican traditionalist churches in the US, Canada, England, and Australia made formal decisions to request implementation of the document in their countries; they sent petitions to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican department that will accept those requests.

    The process of establishing an Ordinariate will have to involve:
    -- appointing a first Ordinary to administer it
    -- enrolling individuals who wish to become members
    -- deciding where to erect Anglican-use congregations;
    -- securing worship sites for the new congregations, in cases where they do not currently have their own buildings;
    -- establishing (at least provisional) liturgical norms for the Anglican-use communities;
    -- creating a process for the ordination of convert clergy, possibly including some educational component.

    Of course it's conceivable that some of those steps could start this year, but the whole process will take more than that.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Please remember, when chatting with people about the "Anglicanorum Coetibus", that it was not a unilateral invitation from Rome to any and all disenfranchised Anglicans. But it was a response to a request by one very large (even worldwide) organization of Anglicans who had long ago broken their ties with the Anglican Communion, and who sought a mechanism by which to be reunited with Rome.
  • While Anglicanorum Coetibus was issued in response to the repeated inquiries by specific groups of Anglicans seeking union with the Holy See, it is very much an invitation to all Anglican Christians who assent to the Church's teachings to come into full communion with the See of Peter. And while the most persistent, public petitioners were from the 'Traditional Anglican Communion', the most influential (and even pivotal) have been the so-called 'flying bishops' of the Church of England, a group of non-territorial Anglican bishops overseeing parishes which did not assent to the 'ordination' of women in the C of E beginning in 1992/3. These prelates represent a very coherent, thriving network of Catholic-minded parishes throughout England for almost 20 years. The Traditional Anglican Communion consists of a number of parishes in Australia and Canada (many of which will seek union with Rome), some US parishes (very few of which have any interest in the Holy Father's invitation), and fairly large, thriving networks of traditionalist parishes in South Africa and India. Some TAC bishops are rather unique characters, especially their primate, who is a former Catholic priest remarried after a civil divorce. No one ever said Anglicanism wasn't interesting and complicated!
  • Robsc
    Posts: 20
    Thanks for the info but since I'm already a full time Director of Music/Organist my weekends are pretty full. I have sang at the Anglican Cathedral in Orlando with a Chamber Choir I used to be in. The Episcopal Cathedral of St. Luke in Orlando does a very beautiful Sunday Evensong. Being the father of a 5 year old now kind of limits my travel opportunities. There are two parishes within the Diocese that offer EF Masses but I've never been because I have Masses at the same time.
    Rob
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    I thoroughly recommend the Anglo-Catholic for its articles and debate on the Ordinariates, which benefit from a range of Anglican and Catholic contributions, including Fr. Chadwick's posts on the Anglican music tradition.