Advice Needed: Implementing a Sung Ordinary
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    I am a cantor at Mission San Fernando Rey de Espana, in Mission Hills, CA. For the last three months we have been singing propers and hymns (OCP booklets), but no ordinary. This past week the monsignor suggested we begin implementing a Mass ordinary, starting with the Gloria. The lector, who over heard the conversation, suggested we sing "Mass of Creation" since that setting is sung at the early 9am Mass. My organist and I shuddered at the thought of doing that, so we asked the monsignor if we could sing the Gloria from the Missa de Angelis. Surprisingly, he said, "go ahead, try it out!" I am starting this discussion because I'd like your feedback. Do you think that starting with this Mass setting would be too overwhelming for a congregation that has, until now, only spoken the Gloria? Would it be better to start with an English setting? If so, do you have any suggestions? I need to make a decision this week, so the organist and I can rehearse it before next Sunday. Any suggestions, words of encouragement, etc. would be greatly appreciated!

    ~A "timid" believer in the Reform of the Reform :)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Well, people might have different experiences. But in my opinion if your parish people are not used to Latin, it might be hard.
    Gloria by John Lee is in very simple chant style. This can also be sung alternately between cantor and people with choir. In the mean time simple Agnus Dei moght be easier for the congregation who are not used to singing Ordinaries.
    (by the way, we have the same last name.)
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Our parish uses the Gloria VIII throughout Christmas and Easter seasons - for at least the last 4 years. The congregational singing was not as strong at the beginning as it is now - so you should not expect strong singing along from the beginning. But there's nothing "wrong" with that - give them a chance to hear it. I would strongly recommend against rehearsing it before Mass - ever! Music in general is NOT that difficult, and is called the "universal language" for a reason. Standing in front of a crowd rehearsing them, measure by measure, only serves to reinforce their notion that this music is hard.

    That being said: we were singing the Sanctus and Agnus Dei XVIII before trying to add the Gloria. We have also tried the Credo and Pater Noster some - and those have been called for - over 20 years ago, from Pope John Paul II himself.

    Also, you might want to try a simpler Gloria, like from Missa XV. Except for one note in the "Amen", it's strictly a pentatonic scale. And, even though it's in a different mode, this Gloria starts on the last note of Kyrie XVI. Also, don't overlook Agnus Dei II from the "ad libitum" section of the Kyriale.

    Finally, I personally prefer organ accompaniment to chant, especially when asking the congregation to sing along. "Nova Organi Harmonia" is a free download. N.B. Unless you are "blessed" with one of those confounded tracker organs, don't be afraid of the transposer switch!
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    Too funny!! You're probably the first person I've met (or spoken too for that matter) who's a Coyne, and isn't a family member. Who knows, maybe we're distant cousins! lol
    Thank you for your suggestions. The John Lee Gloria is a good idea, though I have a hunch my organist will be desirous of something more interesting to play! I will definitely propose it. Starting with a Lamb of God would have been my choice, but the Gloria was the pastor's suggestion...
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    I sang the Angelis Gloria just yesterday. It is pretty easy and you can sell it by telling the congregation that a new English Gloria is coming very soon, which is closer to the original Latin. Just tell them that they will sing the Latin one for a while, so that when the English translation comes in, they will see the connections. No use learning an English Ordinary of any kind right now.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Well, the organist can have more interesting pieces before and after Mass. Maybe you can do Gloria first and Agnus Dei a bit later. But please don't give up, it takes time.
    (I married to a Coyne and my in-laws have pretty big family. Nice to know another Coyne, especially who is a church musician!)

    Cheers!
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    Thank You, Steve!
    Gloria XV is very easy to sing, but so is de Angelis, in my opinion. I guess my real concern is the latin. My personal view is that if the words of the music are comprehensible to the congregation they will more readily make it their own...allowing it to become a prayer. I am not opposed to Latin, as I will often sing the Latin Introit as a prelude just before Mass Begins, but for the Gloria, my preference is English, at least until they are comfortable with a Latin Sanctus or Agnus Dei. What are some good English Gloria's that might be inspired by chant, have accompaniment, and are successful for congregational singing? (I know this is probably a very narrow list)
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    Michael... very good point. If we do end up singing the de Angelis that's EXACTLY what I will say! Thanks!
    Btw, are their any good accompaniments for that Gloria? My organist has the one in the Adoremus Hymnal, and he was too excited by it.
    (he's very picky! lol)
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Here is Kurt Poterack's Gloria in English (current translation). I know that there is an accompaniment for this in the Adoremus Hymnal, but as far as I know, it's not available online.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Rule #1: Never speak when a lector can overhear.

    Andrew, this is exciting news. I think, correct me all if this is wrong, that this is the best known Gloria. I am wondering if the Monsignor knows it...if so, his singing it will really, really help. If he does not know it, a couple of training sessions would be worth it. One note sung by a celebrant is worth a mint, so many people will do what Father does.

    [I would normally start by singing an Agnus Dei while Fr. receives, then after a few weeks, having the people begin to sing it in place of the vernacular. BUT since you have a priest that is interested in starting with the Great Hymn Of The Church, definitely, definitely go for it!]

    The main aversion I have found to singing latin is that lay people are afraid that they cannot pronounce the words. If your church is live and there is echo, this is less a problem, but if you have carpet and a dryer sound people really fear that people around them will hear them sing and be intimidated.

    If you tell them right up front that Latin is much easier because there are only 5 vowels, some may find that helpful.


    To make this all work you might want to try this:

    1. Have a session before Mass for two weeks before you begin to try and sing it.

    2. During the first session, read through the Gloria sentence by sentence, having the people repeat it after you, with Monsignor standing there reading along with the people...and all the lectors and altar servers. Get everyone up there. And make sure that Monsignor lets all on the altar people know that they must participate...including deacons.

    3. During the second session sing it sentence by sentence the same way on one note. Same cast of characters.

    4. Post a link to the music in chant and modern notation and audio files of the Gloria in the parish newsletter and bulletin for as many weeks as they will let you, before, during and after the training session. Make sure there is an english translation under the latin text.

    5. Train the lectors to sing it well and move them from the microphone....to the choir.


    [As an aside, last year I had to put together a Mass with many invited clergy and laypeople and agonized over which Gloria to sing. All Latin I had to approve with the pastor, who was unavailable. Finally in a meeting with a soon-to-be ordained priest and another young priest, they convinced me to program this Latin Gloria. People were complaining that this precluded active participation by the people....and it turned out to be among the best singing by the congregation. Interesting. Still apologized to the unavailable-to-make-a-decision pastor for doing this.]
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Go for it if you think it will work. But why not start with the Agnus? Or the Sanctus? They are shorter, and probably more well known. When you do tackle the Gloria, remember it may be sung in alternation (at the double bars) between choir and congregation. One or more cantors may fill in for the choir if necessary. That way the congregation only needs to learn half.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I forgot about the New translation begining very soon. What a good time to do latin Ordinary! Most hymnals have simple latin Ordinaries anyway. If the hymnal you have for the congregation doesn't have the translation, I would definitely provide it.(of course with the text.)
    They KNOW the meaning by heart, because they sing it (or say it) in English every Sunday.

    Best wishes.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    The Angelis Mass (VIII) should be in NOH organ accompaniments on Jeff O's site: http://lalemantpolyphonic.org/catholic_responsorial_psalms/introductory_material/Gregorian_organ_accomp/. You will want Volume V. There are also other Kyriale options there.
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    After reading all of your comments (and sleeping on it), I think I will go ahead and try the Missa de Angelis. It makes no sense to teach the congregation a new Gloria with the old text. Since the OCP Music Issue doesn't contain a translation under the de Angelis Gloria, I think I might go ahead and make separate music sheets of the Gloria, with the NEW English translation under the Latin text. When I introduce it, I can briefly mention that the new translation is almost here, and that I have included it so they can see the similarities and begin to familiarize themselves with it. Beyond that, I will hope and pray that the music is well received, and that the lector doesn't complain too much to Monsignor!!

    One other thing, does anyone have the Missa de Angelis in Modern notation, or should I use the chant notation? Thanks everyone!
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    I just tried to upload a good file that would insert into any word processor, but the Forum doesn't like those file formats or sizes. Send me an email and I'll respond with whatever you need.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    I would use modern at first. Don't give resistors any more ammunition. I find that even trained musicians freak when they see square notes...
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    But the Gloria from Missa De Angelis isn't new to anybody. People sing it in English all the time. We sang it all the time in the Seventies, Eighties, Nineties -- never knew it came from Latin, even, back then. People are even likely to not realize what you're doing, start singing it in English, and accidentally run over the Latin that way.

    There's tons of chant that people know, that they don't even know is chant -- albeit the folks who grew up in the Eighties or Nineties didn't get as much of that as my generation did.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Maureen, but your situation may be different. I'm thinking of those few folks in the pews who do read a bit of music getting hung up on the direction of a podatus or a clivis. Maybe teach with modern and then introduce the English version with square notes. It looks cool that way and they ALL already know the tune. I think that introducing one difficult thing at at time (Latin in this case) is the best way. BTW my hope is that by the time the translation comes out, most of the parish will say "We don't need this. We have the Latin."
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    Maureen: There's an English Version of the de Angelis Gloria?? I've never seen anything of the sort?! Do you have a copy, or can you provide me with one?
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    I recommend Gloria XV in Latin. Consider using handbells and organum when the melody is established. Consider alternating it between choir and people or side to side.

    The new ICEL plainsong Gloria is modeled on it.

    The people of the San Fernando Mission will see the continuity between past and present when they start singing it in English at Immaculate Conception and at Christmas in 2011.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Kudos to you and your pastor for taking up this initiative.

    I also recommend Gloria XV, unless you have a very significant group of parishioners that remember Gloria VIII.

    I second the idea of preparing the people by offering 2-3 sessions before Mass and/or on a weeknight. Make it fun and community building, with a little food and breaks for chatting. Interested people can show up and skeptics can also show up, or have less complaint credibility. Some folks will likely get hooked and want to form or join the schola.

    In my experience, transitioning to a sung ordinary has worked best by placing a schola or smaller group of skilled singers where they can be heard well, and without amplification. The number and placement of singers depends on the size of your church and acoustics. 2-3 singers would be a workable start if they are strong. These folks should be unshakable, and be able to lead as one vocal unit. (All this may be in place at your parish, I just couldn't tell from the original post.)

    If you have a schola or a few skilled singers, I recommend not accompanying the chant with organ. The people tend to take more ownership of the singing and the horizontal harmonic structure of the chant is clearer. This should be less foreign if people are singing the responses and the Our Father/Pater noster unaccompanied. Ability to sing the ordinary flows from confidence in singing the responses.

    If organ is needed as a temporary crutch to get people initially comfortable with the chant, that's different. With respect to organists on the board, I would not advise using the NOH, as its a rather crowded accompaniment and tends to bog down the chant.
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