Question for those who use counting
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    Do you provide your singers with marked up copy's of chant pieces for counting exercises? Teach them to mark the ictus? Currently I provide copy's with groups of three circled, the ictus for groups of 2 marked and rests. I'm just wondering what others do and whats most practical.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    by necessity, anything new we do from the Parish Book of Chant, they have to mark individually. I have taught them the rules of ictus marking (using the back of the Parish Book of Chant as a guideline). We do that the first time we sing it together. Anything that is a proper that I give them copies, I pre-mark it before copying to save time. As we learn a new piece, though, we always sing and count before we do solfege or sing with words.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Although I haven't done much on ictus these days, we started ictus markings with simple excercises from Gregory Sunol's Gregorian chant book, http://musicasacra.com/pdf/sunol.pdf

    (page 10 in the book, but page 26 if you search in pdf because of the introductory pages, I believe). The excercises can serve for sightsinging in solfeges, simple vocal excercises with 'nu's and 'na's... and other latin vowels, also for ictus and phrasing. I'm hoping the schola can also move on to the chironomy with these simple excercises. (arsis and thesis are marked. But when we did marking the ictus, the schola didn't notice 'a', and 't' above the neums, so they couldn't cheat. We are still working on drawing graceful waves with our hands and arms. It's sort of fun.)

    (Janet, so glad to hear you are keeping up with solfeges and ictus, and doing well with your schola. Hope to see you soon in Pittsburgh.)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I think the more you can get them out of their scores the better. Remember, the ictus is just something we superimpose on a chant to help us make sense of larger groups of notes. Notes marked with the ictus are not sung any differently than notes not marked with an ictus, per se. However, as much as I admire Erik's effort in adding all the ictuses to the score above, I fear that an over-marked score could lead to a choir giving an accented or otherwise choppy reading -- quite the opposite of what Mocquereau intended. There's probably good reason that the Solesmes books don't mark every ictus (and they clearly could have), even though they're the ones who came up with the idea in the first place. I would suggest circling groups of three in pieces where twos are the rule, and vice versa. You will also find the more a choir has a piece committed to memory, the more they will be able to watch your conducting, which should give them all the rhythmic information they need.

    I do occasionally employ a strict Solesmes method when I don't have a lot of time to teach a chant, or when we have new people singing with us. One exercise that can be helpful is having your choir count "one-TWO" or "one-two THREE" as you show the chieronomy. Let them know that this is as much an exercise for yourself, to make sure you're showing the patterns as clearly as you intend! Vary the groups of two and three as well as arsis and thesis. Then, do the same thing, but have them say "arsis, thesis, arsis, arsis, thesis" etc. (or, better, "elan, repos" or even "rising, resting") as you show these two gestures. Again, vary the groups of two an three (a group of three would be "aaaarsis, theeeesis"). If you're really conducting clearly, the choir should know by beat 1 whether it's arsis or thesis and by beat 2 (better, by beat 1!) if it's going to be a group of two or three.
  • AngelaRAngelaR
    Posts: 309
    We've been working all year on implementing the old Solesmes counting, which I begrudgingly started when I realized that my schola needs to stay together. They are now all practically fluent, and it has been invaluable to a cohesive sound. They are not singing accents on the icti -- I've been emphasizing that it is only a mechanism of staying together. I'm now able to vary the tempo within phrases, and my women know how to adjust accordingly. :)

    They all mark their own music. Sometimes I'll count sing through a piece very slowly. They mark every "1" with an ictus, and at the same time get the tonality in their heads. Yes, it takes time, but it also reinforces the conscious need to be consistent in our rhythm. It is amazing how even seasoned chanters will rush certain phrases if they haven't been taught how to count it.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Dr. Marier explained ictus being like snow flake . (It's there, but you don't feel the weight.)
    For myself, I don't mark all the ictus anymore, just circle some 3s, but it may be a good dscipline for the beginning chanters, as long as you don't do it too much in one class. Eventually they won't need to do them all either.

    Also I emphasize that the Latin stress is different from English accent, it's rather light and high. (its seems almost opposite of the American English accent.)
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    Thanks everyone for your responses. My thinking is that If I teach them to mark Icti there are those who will make mistakes, and it takes time.
    I'm somewhat skeptical about counting, and up to this point I've communicated rhythm through chieronomy and by singing examples when necessary, this has worked but it takes quite a while to achieve a uniform rendering.
    I'm afraid of over emphasizing the elementary rhythms, and I don't have them sing from the marked copy's, using them only for the counting exercises. That being said it seems that counting is intended to communicate a definite rhythm and create a uniform expression of it. I considered having them say fall lift [1,2] fa-all lift [1,2,3] instead of counting.

    Eric, do you count rests (silently)? that's one reason I'm introducing the practice.

    Janet, You count on the pitch first, do they sightread? I always start with solfege to learn the pitches and to keep one particular member of the group from translating it into modern notation in his head.

    incantu, agreed , right now I conduct while the are counting.

    Miacoyne, I when I explained the Idea of rhythm I told them not to think about the falls (ictus) but to think about the light active lifts. I avoid using terminology when I can for example instead of arsis thesis I use rise fall

    and everyone else thanks for your responses, this has been helpful.
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    .
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    BGP, you are right, 'fall' wasn't a good terminology. (Thank you for pointing it out. It's my mistake, edited). Many chanters come with the concept of "pulse and rhythm' of metrical music that are not quite the same in singing Gregorian chant. And although I wasn't able to go far on pointing out arsis and thesis with my schola yet, it reminds me that learning ictus is only a first step, and chanters need to be able to feel the arsis and thesis to understand the rhythm of the chant in this method.

    (I have the schola gently tap with a finger or the soft end of the pencil on ictus as they count, now I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, even though it helps them to avoid 3's become a triplet especially when they start chironomy.)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Would it make any sense to say: "3,2,1" and "2,1"?
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    @BGP: plural of 'ictus' is actually 'ictus' not 'icti' because it's fourth declension. similar to episema plural is epismata (greek)
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    miacoyne, no sorry, what I meant was that I use the word 'fall' or 'repose', "rest" instead of confusing them with the words 'ictus' 'Thesis'. But generally I discourage their thinking about the ictus, and focus on the up pulse instead, this prevents stressed ictus [plural ;) ].

    the ictus does fall because its heavier than the 'lift pulse' but its heavy like a snowflake not a brick. Its almost imperceptible and gives just enough support and also not all ictus are equal.

    frogman, is that a loaded question? Pure and strict adherence to the method requires dividing the elementary rhythms beginning with the down pulse 1, but with a word that is a dactyl I would like to count 3,2,1
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Not loaded, just trying to understand...since the French say one - Two - THREE I have never fully understood if this all means moving to the third note...