I was a researcher for another helpful book along these lines, called Pastors in Transition: Why Clergy Leave Local Ministry.

Here's a review: http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=1572

Don't think they won't be successful at it, Gavin. If enough noise is made to the bishop, the bishop may well decide to put a new pastor in who doesn't make waves, keeps people happy, and keeps the money flowing to the diocese, sending the incumbant to be an associate pastor somewhere, or a pastor of a small, country parish.

My first church job, very part-time, was in a tiny Lutheran parish that had split a year earlier. I never knew what the problem was, but it was such a small church that it could ill afford having half the congregation go down the road.

Years later, I had a harp student whose rural church was going through a similar crisis. The assistant minister led half the members off to form his own nondenominational church.

If that wasn't bad enough, the music director was arrested for misappropriating government funds (he was mayor of one of the small towns there). The parent denomination, I think they were United Methodist, sent in an older minister whose specialty was "broken churches" with the task of putting things back together. While their music program may have been severely limited, all of this just about did it in.

Has anyone on this list been removed by a pastor because he wanted you out?

Or, as has been my experience, have a small group of singers in the church...often cantors who want things back the way it was before you got there...having done their best to discourage new singers who were interested in the group...solved their problem, the new director, the new music, the new people, by poisoning the pastor with their take on things?

It is extremely rare for a musician to be removed for the music they pick alone...possibly since there is already so much bad music to choose from!

That's awful David ... it makes my story look like a walk in the park.

I, too, was forced out of a previous position, because a small family of [amateur] musicians wanted to take over the entire music ministry. In additional to myself, they also forced out the remaining organist and dismantled the original folk group (in place of their own "family folk group").

... and so many say that it's better now that the Latin and professional musicians are gone...

When Sheep Attack

Understanding how good people doing excellent work can find themselves jobless....and how to prevent this from happening to you.

You take over a parish, a church, a non-profit group or, as in my case, a music program at a church. Under your guidance it begins to grow and begins to attract more and more attention. Your work begins to get noticed and word gets out more and more that this is the place to go to, as in my case, hear great church music sung as it should be. Possibly a news article appears or a blogger posts a favorable description of your work.

The growth of your work increases the financial income of the church through people transferring their memberships to be part of your program.

Then you find yourself fired. Often suddenly and without notice. It happened to me. Not only did you not do anything wrong, you did everything right.

If you are like me, you spend the next few months wondering what happened. And might even find it hard to even get interviews for a new job.

You experience frustration along with all the people who loved your work and worked with you. It becomes general knowledge that just a few people were behind your removal, a tiny minority of the membership. And you did nothing wrong, instead you did everything right.

------------------------------------------

In my case, I eventually got hired on a three month period to replace a musician who left during the school year. And, to my surprise, over just three months I saw the same key things popping up that I had seen before. Interesting.

Since then I have thought about this more and more and felt the frustration of not being able to understand why this was happening.

Then I read When Sheep Attack by Dennis Maynard.

Now I understand exactly what happened...not only in the present but also over the years of my career. It's something new that has been growing for years, and is becoming more and more pervasive and you need to know about this if you excel at what you do.

The book costs $15 and is worth every penny.

I'll follow the plan laid out in this book at my next position and know that my work will not be put in jeopardy as it has been in the past. Maynard's work is groundbreaking and should be a topic of discussion whenever you meet with people who work as we do in churches, schools and non-profits. I should add, that this would solve a lot of grief in the corporate world as well.

Noel Jones, AAGO

An additional benefit is that it discusses the Episcopal church quite a bit so the advice applies to the Catholic church and its staff structuring very nicely.

I've just finished the book. It is extremely revealing and rings true in every way. Essentially it is this. Every parish has about 2% of the membership that can be defined as antagonists who the intention of destroying growth and development. They target new people responsible for growth, and they use predictable methods of driving their enemies out. They often succeed, except in the cases where a strong Bishop backs the priest or the priest back the newly hired professional such as a musician. This is the exceptional case. The suggestion in this book is that you look very carefully at parish history before taking a job. The antagonists don't reveal themselves right away. But parish history shows that if this group has been successful in the past, they will try again.

This book is very well research and documented. It could become an important book for musicians in the future.

I plan to read this book, but before you blame everything on the sheep... Musicians sometimes create their own problems. I have known musicians who were erratic, disorganized, unreliable, and lacking in people skills. When the inevitable happened, it was all the fault of the sheep. It can be the sheep, and/or a musician that causes a parish music position to disintegrate.

I recently got a personal email from a musician who is suddenly on the outs with his pastor and not sure why.

Based upon what we have learned from WSA, what would you recommend he do?

Interesting - TRIANGLE. childhood replace with music positions

https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/ev8bjm/the-triangulation-theory-may-explain-why-some-childhoods-are-so-stressful

(Also read Kathy's very insightful post just above)

Actually, in our parish, it is the local embroiderers guild. They know all, tell all, and are behind most intrigue.

I'm actually currently dealing with a similar situation where there is a new priest who does not want me there. I noticed a strong sense of animosity because of my traditional tastes.
The past few years I have been building a better repertoire at our church and the former pastor was very supportive of the musical choices and many people in the congregation told me that they appreciate what I am doing.

Unfortunately, the former pastor was driven out by antagonists within the parish and when I sent the music/hymn list for June to December to the new pastor, he said "I believe that you may not understand Catholic Worship and where the Church has been nor where it is going." He said that I reflect an "older mindset" that he experienced thirty years ago. He also said that he personally likes traditional hymns, however they do not speak to him nor do they reflect the spirit of the Church today. He said that he is willing to speak with me so that I can "get a grasp of liturgy today" and build up the community of our church.

I think it would be very unpastoral to change direction of the musical style abruptly. I am meeting with the priest tomorrow and would make the suggestion that we have a separate mass that contains contemporary music. I would also like to get a better idea of what his goals are for the music at our church. The parish consists of mostly older people and I barely see anyone under 40 at mass. The priest wants to attract a younger crowd by switching to contemporary music for all the masses. He also wants to have our early 9am mass to be the children's mass which I agree with. However, he announced to members of the congregation during coffee hour that there will be a children's choir without ever speaking with me about it. He said that he will be sitting in on the "practices" and started singing some of the songs that he would like them to know.
I am considering leaving the position if we cannot come to a compromise.

Invincible ignorance, Schonbergian. That's the 'spirit' we encounter.

Irishtenor's right Dman. Get the hell outta dodge. If only for this reason - anyone who makes the thoroughly nonsensical remark that they "like traditional hymns" but that they "don't speak to him" cannot be trusted to act logically - only politically.

Am I the only one who doesn't think the "church today" is doing so great? Looks like it is declining rather than growing. Maybe they are doing something wrong, ya think?

I was told by the pastor that the PM said that she did not want depressing chant during the Easter Vigil because it will dampen the spirit of the new baptismal candidates. I agreed, and told pastor that we will not sing the Exultet, the Litany of the saints, the Lord's prayer, or the responsorial Psalms or the Alleluia and sequence on Easter. Pastor: " Never mind."

PM

Prime Minister? Power Monger? Post Menop…..? (nevermind.) Proprieties Manager? Paraliturgical Mediator? Personhood Mogul?

The demographic category that needs to be considered as central in parishes is not teenagers and twenty-somethings. They do not lead families. Fathers and mothers do, and the fathers (for some reason, I don't know why) have more influence than the mothers.

If the dads sing, then the moms sing, and the kids sing. If the dads don't sing, then the teens don't sing. (As a cantor, I can see this in action: I see teens look at the dads to assess whether singing along is OK or if it's beneath their dignity.) If the dads don't attend Mass, then the children, when they are independent, will not attend Mass.

So forget about little kiddie songs and forget about the Christian-radio pop songs that sound as though Jesus were the singer's boyfriend. And cut back on the tricky syncopations and the sappy musical-theater tunes in which the last note of every phrase is held for two measures.

Father probably has no idea about this.

Anybody else notice chonak has a gazillion posts?
"I'm thinking 'conspiracy'" (Alex Jones)

I have 9,179 now maybe going to 9,180. If you add in Melo's posts when he was Charles in Central CA, or some such, he may have more than all of us.

I like the way Ken of Sarum thinks.

Or, to quote a pop-culture illustration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TsL0DO-c1E

dmandalak: using only hymns does not make a traditional liturgy.

What I have in mind is NOT like any Episcopal or Catholic church or any other church currently in existence except perhaps the Mariner's Church in Detroit. I merely mentioned the Anglican Use as it relates to quality traditional sacred liturgy and music. The focus of my thinking is perhaps controversial in that each parish would be controlled by a governing board, vestry, chapter or committee. Although I personally dislike this seemingly protestant concept of congregationalist purantism, I believe that power and control must be taken away from clergy at this time in history due to their collective mismanagement and sinfulness. Of course not all clergy fall under this indictment, but until the Church Universal in all of Christendom is cleaned up, I believe the laity must step up and take over the reigns of temporal control. I beg forgiveness in saying this and it grieves me considerably, but I see no other way from a purely practical perspective. Of course it would take laity of extra-ordinary character and courage. Again, I beg forgiveness in putting forth this idea in light of recent developments.