Sequence questions
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    1. The lectionary has the sequence sung before the alleluia. However, the Gregorian Missal publishes the sequence for Pentecost after the Alleluia?

    2. Is there a reason the amen-alleluia endings of the sequences are eliminated in the Gregorian missal?
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    The GIRM says, "64. The Sequence, which is optional except on Easter Sunday and on Pentecost Day, is sung before the Alleluia." I'm not sure why snide comments about the Ordinary Form are called for when you could have looked this up yourself in fifteen seconds. And the Gregorian Missal is full of egregious typos, so you can chalk the variance up to that if you'd like.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,861
    The Ordo Cantus Missae says to sing the Sequence after the Alleluia: see page 9 of my translation of the introduction and norms.

    The Gregorian Missal, like the Solesmes Graduale Romanum, follows the norms in the OCM: thus the discrepancy vs. the GIRM.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Apparently this changed from the 2000 GIRM ("cantatur post Alleluia") to the 2002 GIRM ("cantatur ante Alleluia"). As a more recent document with the force of law, the 2002 GIRM would supersede contrary instructions in the 1988 OCM.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,861
    Any canonists here? It's hard to know how to deal with cases like this. Some laws remain in effect, even if contradicted, until a new law names the old one and expressly states that it's intended to override the older one. Sometimes contradictions remain unresolved until someone asks the Roman curia to settle things.

    Here's how I split the hairs: I've figured that, in the context of the Ordinary Form, OCM was binding for Masses in Latin (the decree promulgating it said so in 1972, and probably nothing has changed that), and the GIRM for vernacular Masses.
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
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  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 940
    Following our pastor's wishes, we sing the sequences before the alleluia. It works very well. The schola sings the sequence, then, when the Alleluia begins, the pastor and parishioners stand while the pastor moves to the ambo.
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
    .
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Or is this just one of the many build-a-Mass options of the Novus Ordo?


    This isn't snide. This is the consensus of every competent liturgist in the world.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,576
    The CMAA Forum Discussion "Search" button
    is located in the banner at the top of every page.

    There are several discussions that thoroughly cover this already ...
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Erik, I haven't looked very hard, and the only typos I can think of off the top of my head aren't earth-shattering: In EP III, "An so, Father, we bring you ..."; in the rubric for the Ite Missa Est of the Easter Vigil, "the dimissal is sung as follows"; the heading for one page in the section for dedication of a church randomly reads "Dedicace of a Church." I was probably overstating things to say you should just chalk up a variance in the order of chants to a typo, I was happy to find that this is just due to a change in the GIRM.

    Jeffrey: "build-a-Mass options of the Novus Ordo" is a snide-sounding way of phrasing the remark. I accept Erik's explanation, but I hope that the next time someone says something like, "Bishop Slattery spent most of the Mass with his back turned on the faithful," you'll be so quick to reply that it's the consensus of anyone with two eyes that the Bishop's back actually was pointing toward the congregation.

    EFT, you're quite right about the search function! Bruce Ford's remarks in this thread seem particularly astute.

    At any rate, these discussions don't amount to much more than, "They did it one way for centuries, and now they've changed it. So what do we actually do?" That's a question that pretty much answers itself. As far as the modern form of the rite is concerned, contra Chonak I can't see that it matters whether Mass is in Latin or the vernacular, since after all the GIRM is really the IGMR, an instruction in Latin for a missale in Latin. And comments elsewhere on this site indicate it was promulgated with an "anything to the contrary notwithstanding."
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The GIRM presumes that we will be singing the Responsorial Psalm and a simple threefold Alleluia, not the Gradual and Alleluia proper. Even though the Gregorian Missal is not strictly speaking an official liturgical book (although it is based on one), I would follow its ordering (according to the OCM) if I were singing the chants it contains. If I were not singing the proper chant, I would follow the ordering in the Lectionary: sequence, then Gospel verse (according to the GIRM).

    As for the omission of the Amen and Alleluia, aren't you just supposed to know how those go (like the Gloria Patri tones, and the Amen formulae for office hymns)? My Graduale Triplex lists in the back the Alleluia tones that are to be added to Introits and Communion during the Easter season, with the assumption that you will know how and when to use them.
  • Erik P
    Posts: 152
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  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The Gregorian Missal also aims to be compact, and as such it does not claim to be comprehensive.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 940
    Our Mass is mostly English, although we sing a fair amount of Latin. We will do the proper Alleluia from the Chants Abreges on Pentecost. The cool thing about our pastor is that, although he sticks to the vernacular (either English or Spanish, depending on the Mass scheduled), he sings a large part of the Mass. Before our schola was in existence and for all the years he has been a priest, cooperative choir or not... (or mariachis or not), he sings his prayers, sings the dialogs, sings the Gospel reading... sings the intercessions...

    So... our chants don't seem out of place.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > As for the omission of the Amen and Alleluia, aren't you just supposed to know how those go

    I believe that is not the case.

    Concerning the omission of the Amen, the Ordo Cantus Missae says (§ 8, chonak's translation): «The sequence (...) is sung (...) omitting the Amen at the end.» The GIRM does not say anything to the contrary, so no one can argue here that the OCM no longer applies.

    Concerning the omission of the Alleluia at the end, that Alleluia was there because in the EF you do not repeat the Alleluia after the Alleluia verse when there is a sequence; you immediately begin the sequence, that concludes with that short Alleluia to compensate the omission of the melismatic one. Now (that is to say, in the OF) you always repeat the Alleluia after the Alleluia verse (nowhere does it say to do otherwise), and thus (whether you end up singing the Alleluia before or after the Sequence, it does not matter) you do not need an Alleluia at the end of the sequence.

    Of course, I reckon that if you really sing the Amen and the Alleluia at the end of the Sequence, that is not such an awful liturgical abuse...
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    It's not just that the EF "Alleluia" verse doesn't end with "Alleluia", so the Sequences must add it. It's because the entire Sequence evolved out of the Alleluia - as a set of tropes, each ending with its own "Alleluia". Eventually those Alleluias between all the verses disappeared, and the Sequence sounded more like a hymn, with emphasis on its own rhyme and meter, including the "Amen. Alleluia." in question.

    Whoever put the Sequence before the Alleluia had little or no understanding of this - or maybe just didn't care, since the liturgical history was simply in the way of their vision of the new Mass. I like incantu's suggestion that we had already jettisoned the Gradual, Tract, and Alleluia in favor of a "Responsorial Psalm" and a "Gospel Acclamation". (I personally don't care for either.)

    My practical solution on Easter Sunday (which I intend to repeat on Pentecost) was to sing everything as written, omitting the "Amen. Alleluia.", but going right into the Alleluia after the Sequence. Now I mean that quite literally - not waiting for a signal like the Celebrant standing, or a liturgical/meditative "pause", and without any organ introduction to the "Gospel Acclamation". Without even a one-beat rest, the Cantor began "Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia." This made the music of the Sequence/Alleluia totally seamless. (Just be sure you match up the modes/key signatures.)