• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QFd_55El1I

    Imagine what it would be like if they had...chant.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    So much like English change ringing - I'd love a chance of being part of that crew! And I would really appreciate a copy of the hymn being sung also.
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    I admit that it's really fascinating. But, is this a singular phenomenon or part of some older tradition? It seems like a really fun but mostly distracting way to incense the altar/church/people/anything. What am I missing?
  • I was actually searching for a video of thurifer swinging that goes 360 and found this instead.
  • goes 360 : You mean like figure 8s and circles and halves? In my episcopalian days I did each just one time, outdoors where they were not so dangerous, and they were great fun! But where to find video I would not know.
  • ref_scottref_scott
    Posts: 90
    Noel...

    Just search "Thurifer Video" on YouTube and the first match is a 360 Thurible.

    I agree that Compostela has a very distracting incensing tradition.
  • Dan F.: Those questions have been in my mind too ever since I first heard of this giant thurible. I returned to them tonight and skimmed the Wikipedia articles on city and cathedral, a Guardian article, and the cathedral's own website, and found practically nothing. I learned that the censer used today was made in 1851. The Guardian says the practice goes back 700 years and nobody knows the reason for it. Nowhere can I find mention of when and how the thing is done. I could not even find mention of the censor on the cathedral's site, a site that is so loaded down with sending images that it is intolerably slow.
  • You Tube video: You knew before you got there that it would be in an Episcopal church. Or at least that was the way to bet.
  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwswNZPTU3Q is the first video and it is not a 360.

    While the huge, swinging thurifer may seem over done, the church is full. Is there a difference between something like this which may be part of the reason the church was full and having an excellent choir that people are attracted to hear?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I have no clue if I'm accurate or not, but I'd guess most of the people at the church with the giant thurible are tourists going to see the giant thurible. I can't see that being "the reason" why you attend Mass someplace. A choir can do different pieces of music in different styles and can do different pieces for different seasons of the year, feasts, etc... The giant thurible might have a few different moves, might be able to go at different heights, but it's always just going to be a giant thurible. Unless they add a light show, once you see the giant thurible a few times, you've seen all that the giant thurible is going to do. A choir has endless possibilities. That thurible has only a few. And I mean no offense to the thurible or those folks who are working so very hard to control it.

    People will come back week after week to hear a great choir... I'm not sure the same people are going to come back week after week for the giant thurible if there's not some more depth (great preaching, which also can change and isn't the same thing every week, great music, etc..).
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Go to: http://www.santiago-compostela.net/

    This ancient Shrine to St. James is at the culmination of a pilgrimage through the north of Spain. There are a number of historic routes of this pilgrimage. I'm sure many of those people have finished one of the pilgrimages, and, no, they probably won't return for next Sunday's Mass. But they might make the pilgrimage again - maybe after they've made other pilgrimages, like to Our Lady of Walsingham Shrine in England which is originally from about the same time period.
  • matthewj: Check the Wikipedia article "Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela". It appears the censer is actually not used very often. In fact it is usually uninstalled and kept in the cathedral library.
  • Simon
    Posts: 161
    Getting back to the first query - i.e. Imagine what it would be like if they had .... chant? What did they have when this was first introduced? Maybe nothing - it just happened with no music. Now they elected to sing whatever it is now. What the heck would/could you sing? This is a rather unique local custom. I can't think of anything which would be suitable given the spectacle.
  • The cathedral is the termination point for a major pilgrimage route. I have the idea that the thurible is used in a special liturgy for arriving pilgrims. The music on the video above is also a special hymn for pilgrims. Every video I have found has this hymn being sung during the censing. I hesitated to say this earlier because I don't remember my source and so have no way to estimate reliability. But if I am right the thurible is a pilgrim thing, not something for the regular parishioners.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    If you had traveled hundreds of miles on foot on a rocky mountain road, either out of devotion or as an assigned penance, you would be glad to see Big Things at the pilgrimage site. Pretty much all the big pilgrimage churches featured elaborate Masses and devotional ceremonies, special hymns of the place, multiple pilgrimage areas within the town, and so forth. Many of the pilgrimage churches included elaborate clockworks and other showy cool things. If they didn't have them, people brought back stuff from the far corners of the earth and gave them to them; or they commissioned them for the church.

    The analogy to tourism is actually pretty apt. Pilgrimages were medieval destination tourism, among other things.

    But a holy place, being close to God, was most fittingly "decorated" with things of wonder. Also, a pilgrimage is always a special high holy occasion; so it was fitting to have super freaky stuff, like a giant thurible of prayer. Having it be somewhat scientific, like a giant swinging thurible, was an apt illustration of God's reasonable Creation, able to be understood. There's even the medieval tendency to mix play and solemnity in church, and to do dramatic things that make you wonder if it will turn out Badly. It's like a medieval holiness homerun.

    I'm not saying that everybody has to have a giant swinging thurible, but it would certainly make me give thanks to God if I saw one!
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    that is one huge thurible. (!)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    I'm probably being much too prosaic, but wouldn't at least part of the historic reason for a giant swinging thurible likely be the odor of the gathered pilgrims?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Kathy, I have heard that mentioned in many articles and historical documentaries.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Very nice singing with organ.:)

    Hopefully, nobody got in the way of the thurible when it was swung all the way from one side to the other.

    If you look at about 2:33 minutes you'll see one of the priests looking at it like a kid looks at a balloon or something saying, "Look Mommy!"
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    Maureen, thanks for your insights. It makes a little more sense to me now.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    I like it. They will probably be responsible for incensing heaven. As for me I hope to run a wing shop perched on the edge of a huge cloud. Not buffalo wings, but deadalus wings for your flying enjoyment.
  • What awfully disappointing music! Some Monteverdian or Gabrieline polychoral marvel would be the more fitting in such a time and place.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Everybody knows that the best in the world is Benny Dawkins in "The Diva Wore Diamonds." He won the International Thurifer Invitational in Santiago, Spain. He stunned the judges with his signature move, St. Moulagh's Breastplate, which left a vaporous Celtic cross hanging in the air. ;-)
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    Apparently this is the hymn to the Apostle St. James with lyrics:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNOftp1RHs

    I'd imagine that the Botafumeiro action would seem more prayerful at the EF, with the clergy in choir and celebrant facing away from the thurible. But then that would raise the question, why the Spanish hymn?
  • Has anyone even established that the botafumeiro is used at mass? Perhaps it is used at a special ceremony for the reception of pilgrims? Such a service would probably be a non-liturgical devotion in which the vernacular might be used extensively or exclusively; cf. the rosary.

    Maureen, I think you are right on.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    Miracles of Compostela and Miracles of Sant'iago: by the Anonymous 4. This has music from the Codex Calixtinus, an mss from Compostela's library. This is probably closer to what medieval pilgrims would have heard during the Botafumeiro!

    YouTube has some recordings, particularly of the controversially different interpretations of the early polyphony piece, "Congaudeant Catholici".

    Here's an academic page with some info on the music.

    Also, the Llibre Vermell of Montserrat has Montserrat pilgrimage music. (That's a Marian pilgrimage.) There are several albums of that, because it's got that cool Catalan thing going on. :)

    Chantblog has some interesting info, including the Latin lyrics of "Congaudeant Catholici".
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    I don't know Spanish, but I think the Archdiocese of Compostela website says the following:

    • The Botafumeiro is used on the 25 Solemnities of the year, and occasionally for pilgrimages
    • The Hymn to St. James the Apostle was composed during the holy year 1920. The lyrics were written by a local doctor, Barcia Caballero, and the music was composed by M. Soler, the maestro of the Cathedral Chapel.


    BTW, the Holy Father is scheduled to visit Compostela this November. 2010 is considered a "Holy Year" at Compostela, because the Feast of St. James (July 25) falls on a Sunday.