Familiar motets with "new" texts; kosher or not?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Yesterday we sang a "Bone pastor..." edited/arranged by a Matthew Collett from St. John's Schola of Auckland, NZ, set to Tallis' "If ye love me." http://www2.cpdl.org/wiki/images/f/f5/Tallis_Bone_pastor.pdf
    It worked; on all levels, for me.
    What about the notion of "retro-fitting" texts of propers or ____(?) to known motets, etc., such as "Sicut cervus," "Dixit Maria," etc.? Other than a bad arrangement or declamation issues, are there reasons that would make such endeavors objectionable?
    For your consideration:
    Finale 2005 - [Arcadelt Ego sum.pdf
    43K
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    If you can make it work musically and textually, why not do it? I think it's a nice creative challenge. Of course this is a very common practice in hymnody--hence the metrical index. Is there a reason it would be any different with different texts/styles?

    As an interesting aside, Monteverdi wrote a Marian lament as a Latin contrafactum to his own operatic "Lament of Arianna" and published it in the 1640-41 collection Selva morale e spirituale. Not exactly Mass propers, but it certainly pushes the boundaries of musical "piety"!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    If you are using Latin, is your congregation familiar enough with the language to know the difference? Composers have been changing texts for centuries, so I certainly don't see any harm.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm against it for the following reasons: 1) If your choristers (or even just one) are familiar with another text and the rhythm must be changed to accommodate the text, this can be very confusing and frustrating. 2) Text painting. 3) Trying to keep the rhythm and meter of the piece can often result in awkward language. My church has a set of old, old, old anthem books called "The Concord Anthem Book". They contain some good to bad polyphony, but none of it retains the Latin text. Some of them are awkward paraphrases (I don't remember what they have for "Sicut Cervus", but it's bad) and some are texts which are completely different in theme than the original.

    I suppose if you think you have a different text that avoids those problems, go for it.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Gavin, just for fun ('cause you know I likes yo' style) I'm going to play with your objections. Now I did add caveats, bad arrangements (of which mine, above, might just be) and declamation. Okay:
    1. Our choristers did, initially, have to let go of the rhythmic/syllabic "prejudice" from years of singing the original text. But the confusion was short-lived. Now, think of how that could prove to be of benefit to their ability to mark time, recognizing new phrasing, adjust to textual emphasis in the same or different language, and with other musicality issues such as dynamics.
    2. Text painting. One could argue that as a compositional device, that comes later than classic polyphony. Aside from that, I agree that many moments in well-known pieces such as "Sicut.." (like the ascending Tenor/Bass parallel duet) would require an appropriately momentous text. On the other hand, a piece as innocuous (not a slam) as Dubois' "Adoramus te," even with its great musical phrase "qui a per sanctam crucem tuam," seems not to qualify as a setting that is centered around text painting.
    3. Oh yeah, some of the 20th century text substitutions of RC classics, like Mozart's "Ave verum" are notoriously laughable. But then there are instances where folks like the late Fr. Eugene Lindusky took great pains to turn "Sicut" into "Just as the deer" so that the flow of each part wasn't littered with ungainly vowels or clumsy consonants.

    I'm wondering if there's a problem with association with the composer's intent, or the legacy of the setting itself (as in the mentioned Mozart epic?)
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Charles, the composer's intent and the legacy of the setting shouldn't matter. Mozart himself rewrote sections of Don Giovanni to suit different singers/audiences, but think of how "hallowed' that work has become for operagoers. Listeners familiar with the older music might think the new arrangement is strange, but if it's beautiful and beautifully done, it will expand their horizons.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I'm not a huge fan, but there are an awful lot of Bach movements from cantatas, etc., that "The Father of us All" rewrote himself!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Not to mention Georg Frideric as well!
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