I can only relate what has happened in the parish where I work. There are a couple of Hispanic congregations in my area. One is Mexican, the other primarily Guatemalan. I never realized it, but the two groups want nothing to do with each other. A former associate started Spanish masses for Guatemalans at my parish, but he was a rather wishy-washy individual who made no effort to get the main congregation to buy into the concept of Spanish masses. The Spanish masses were out of control and the dear Father tried to be Mother Teresa to everyone. Of course, that didn't succeed. Needless to say, there was chaos from the start. The Spanish masses had what was, in essence, a bar band providing music. The next associate and the current associate pastor, insisted the Spanish masses follow the rubrics, use the correct liturgical books, etc. Things have gotten better and the Guatemalans are making a concerted effort to fit into the parish. Some have stopped attending the Spanish masses and now attend the English masses, as their command of English has developed. I wouldn't say the music at the Spanish masses is great, but it is better. Leaders in the Hispanic community and in the parish are starting to cooperate with each other and find common ground and mutual interests. Our associate is pushing Latin as a common denominator when dealing with language barriers. It can work, but the realization has to be there that being Catholic trumps language and culture.

AOZ: But what about reaching out to the many Spanish speaking

That is why the Document Literacy post has had pointers to documents in both English and Spanish
http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2182

Kathy, I don't really think there is anything to quibble about. Chant is intended for all audiences,and not a niche market. I was not trying to say that we are aiming chant at the Anglo market exclusively. I know we are of the same mind here. But compared to the English language resources we are offering (eft: thanks for commenting on the Documents Literacy post), and the fact that the website and even this forum are in English, it does appear that our concentration is not on Spanish speakers. Is that something we can do anything about right now? To be honest, I think we are doing all we can right now. All volunteer, no staff per se, limited resources of all kinds. I was merely passing on the impressions that were passed on to me. Valid observations all around.

i wonder if the spanish language has nice hynms like this: http://www.gloria.tv/?media=65595&connection=corporate

Before we repeat other Discussion materials,
I encourage all to use the CMAA Forum Search button
conveniently located at the top of each webpage.

The Anglicans are truly the masters of hymnody. No one does it better.

frogman: difficult to access

I do not know how EWTN makes the scriptures available.
Are there Spanish Bible websites or CDs we can track down?
I will start looking around; perhaps non-english non-USA websites have resources?

In other Forum Discussions, I stated the same thing (not available) about other USCCB liturgy-related materials.
English: available PDF online for free, and available printed as a book for money.
Espanol: available only as a book for money.
I bet it ALL could be free if the CCHD funds were re-purposed for liturgy education;
that would be real human development.

This year Easter Vigil Mass was the first time that my EF/OF parish started singing Gregorian Chant ordinary (in Latin) in Novus Ordo Mass. It was really nice setting for Holy Triduum because there were at least three large groups of peoples of different languages at the Mass: English, Spanish, Vietnamese, etc. I believe it is a fresh fruit of Pope Benedict XVI's motu proprio. If a pastor has a right understanding on liturgy and Church music, it is not entirely impossible to implement the universality, beauty and sacredness of Catholic faith in multi-lingual/cultural Catholic communities.

Watching youtube videos of Mass in Spanish from around the world show that the liturgies vary in musical quality as much as the US ones...lots of bad music and some, as Joseph has said, with very good usage of Gregorian Chant.

And "he places a good deal of the blame on the Cursillo and charismatic movements that have taken hold in Spanish speaking communities." applies to the US English parishes as these groups took over many parishes, alienating the traditional Catholics here.

I see the difficulty in reaching the Spanish population is the stereotyped misconception that this arm of the Church is full of illiterate, undocumented aliens. A real slap in the face to the many professional Hispanics that populate the US.

I can only imagine the difficulty in reaching these congregations with the Reform. Of course, it only takes a priest with conviction to make this happen.

Though it would appear to be off-topic, the charismatic movement in the english churches which broke down the wall between the people in the pews and the sanctuary eventually broke down and hauled off the communion rails.

It empowered people with little or no training or education to assume positions of power and influence in parishes, taking over portions of the role of the priest and removing him from his position of influence over the parish. As a result, many priests today bow to the thoughts and whims of lay people, especially in matters that involve "what the people think".

I cannot envision how this works out in the Hispanic community as it has to deal with the additional perception that they are unwanted, illegal, uneducated and so on. In so many parishes their Masses, like the EF, are shunted off to unpopular times.

How can we help.

I suggest we all pray that such a person appear.

For #1: There already is a Polish counterpart to NLM: Nowy Ruch Liturgiczny. Similar initiatives in more languages would be a fine thing: Nuevo Movimiento Liturgico, I suppose?

The Polish site started in 2007 and contains content independent of the English site.

Hello, I realize I'm probably a little late to this discussion but it's better late than never.

I'm a Hispanic, Spanish speaking, volunteer (beginning) organist in his early 20's.
I just want to say that I have been noticing the rapid decline in liturgical music (especially in Spanish) and am very much aware of the strong influence that a certain publisher in the Western US has had on music.

Why is it so hard to find any decent liturgical music in Spanish? Modern English liturgical music and masses may not be what it used to be, but at least we still have access to more traditional options. Whereas when it comes to Spanish, close to all of the "hymns" you will usually hear have been written within the past 50 years or so. This lead to me asking myself the following question: What did Spanish speaking communities have for music before the 1960's? Did they not have music at all? It would seem that way since there are very little resources in that department.

I feel that the publishing of many of this modern music is being overseen by (no offense to anyone) non-Spanish speaking Americans who have never heard traditional Mexican liturgical music and know very little about the culture.

From looking at the hymnals with this type of music, they would have you think that Mexicans enjoy no other type of music other than fast paced folk, polka-ish, guitar music. That, I assure you is very much NOT the case! In mexico, just about every church I visited had (and used regularly) a pipe organ. Further, even in the smallest towns, there was a choir, consisting of lay-singers from the town, who could sing four part hymns and mass settings.

I have been searching high and low, near and far for a good source of decent liturgical music in Spanish. Not much has come up so far, and the music we are forced to use is getting worse and worse. It has gotten to the point where I have started rewriting the music for some of the "hymns" and psalms. Little by little, the Music Director at my parish and I have been trying to push towards a more traditional mass. At this point I'm thinking maybe chant is the way to go. Lots of sources for that.

I've often wondered, if organ and/or SATB choir music always seems to sound "like church" to people, then why do I not actually hear it in church?

I'm sure another reason is the lack of organists and qualified music directors. I've been thinking about writing very simple music for organ and choir. However I'm not too sure how to go about this since I've never written a full length four part piece. If anyone has any similar ideas, I'd love to hear them and help out however I can.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I could go on for hours about his. I just think this is a rather serious issue.

It seems to me that there's a very real danger of not understanding the deeper context of all this, that we're talking about the Hispanic Music or Spanish Music from the viewpoint of outsiders.

I bring this up because I had a powerful conversation with a gentleman this week who has a company which teaches English speakers Spanish, and Spanish speakers English. But it's not done in a classroom model.

He brings together 5 speakers of each language, who are each motivated to be both student and teacher. Each person is offered the very real dignity of teaching others about his or her language and culture, with equal priority given to both.

With this model, they develop friendships and true community. They grow together with common goals and shared understanding.

In this discussion thread, there doesn't seem to be much desire to be taught about the richness of the culture behind this. We're falling into a trap of thinking, "Why do those folks not want to do it the way I think it should be done? How can I fix them?"

Which is some of the same dynamic we've seen between the EF and OF communities. What our beloved Pope Emeritus desired is that we truly learn from each other, not try to convince each other. It's not a battle to be won.

Richard Mix: I suppose you're right. But those people usually have no choice, since there is a lack of good resources. They're forced to use what ever is available, and rely on whatever info they're given by questionable sources.

I'm not sure exactly of the names of these churches. I know a lot from the state of Aguascalientes use them. Side note: at the "Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asuncion" in the state capital city there is a Ruffatti pipe organ. The only one in the country, if I'm not mistaken. However I will keep looking for more specific churches.

Carl D: I think you're right. It is very easy to lose site of the real issue and get lock into the whole "my way is THEE way". I like your story of the teaching method. I think that is a good way to gain insight into a culture straight from the source.

I was not trying to say that my way was better or that folk-ish liturgical music was bad. I myself am in a Mexican folk band with accordion, guitar, bass, etc. I greatly enjoy it. However, what I'm trying to say is, why are we basically forced to use this style? I am of the opinion (and most definitely not alone) that the mass should be solemn and something extraordinary. So where are the resources for people like me? I understand they're trying to make money and cater to "youth/newcomers". To that let me just say that just about all of the young (about 8 to 28 range) people that I have asked on the subject said they would prefer SATB than folk guitar/keyboard/drum style so common in the churches in my area. So where are they getting the idea that it is necessary to keep producing music like this, and ONLY like this?

ghmus7: I am sure there was an organ movement in Mexico just like elsewhere. It would make sense since there are many Baroque pipe organs in Mexico. In fact, I believe the Mexican state of Oaxaca is home to about 70 Baroque organs.

About the repertoire of 4 part hymnody, I have been trying to find this "holy grail" of Spanish music for some time now. A friend of mine is an excellent organist and choir director down in Mexico. I haven't been able to get a hold of him but I think he might know where to find some of the things we're looking for. Maybe I'll see if I can get funding for an expedition to go south and find music... wishful thinking. But next time I'm down there, I'll definitely try to bring back as much as possible and spread it up here.

Um, I'm able to google Francisco Courcelle; Wikipedia doesn't seem to explain the Jesuit connection.