Gilbert, are you in that video? I thought I saw you in the schola.

Jeff,

I really like the focus and intent of the video, but as Mark M. seems to suggest it might be envisioned with a less sympathetic, more confrontational audience in mind; in other words, the sort of people so many music directors have to face each day in their parishes. For example, there is no mention of "inculturation" in the video, a concept on which most detractors will base their arguments against a Western chant based repertoire. You will be accused of being too selective with your Vatican II and papal encyclical quotes.

I applaud you for creating a video that most of us would gladly show at a parish staff or council meeting. There is a real need for such a resource. At this stage, however, you need - in my opinion- to anticipate better the opposition such a showing inevitably will incur.

Thanks, everybody, for your comments!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

@Randolph,

1. I don't believe that SacroSanctum Concilium mentioned the word "inculturation" (unless I am wrong...)

2. I once had an opportunity to ask a high-ranking Prelate (who worked closely with no fewer than three Popes in the field of Sacred music) what inculturation was all about. His answer was that inculturation can be very useful for Mission countries.

3. I've seen some official Church documents that actually do mention inculturation (for missionary countries) but they always stress that EXTREME caution by Ordinaries and supervision by Church officials must accompany efforts in this area.

4. I'm not convinced that "inculturation" (whether or not it is stressed in the Church docs at all) can ever 'trump,' overpower, or override the major emphases of Papal documents, or contradict the statements quoted in that video.

5. Most importantly of all, Randolph, I would love to hear others' opinions about this subject. Who knows? Perhaps the video (above) can be a starting point for discussion.

you guys. Inculturation is supposed to be like what happened in Alaska with St. Herman of Alaska... what happened with the Slavs when Sts. Cyril and Methodius went out to evangelize them... Inculturation is why we have a Greek church, a Coptic church, an Arabic church, a Latin church, a Russian church, a Serbian church, a Polish church, and so forth and so on...

inculturation is a baptism of the culture. it is not a defection to the culture like it seems to be with rock music at Mass, etc.

Thanks, Chonak! OK, cool. That's the one to which I was referring.

Yes, this confirms what I said (above) --- and emphasizes, once again:

to specify adaptations, especially in the case of the administration of the sacraments, the sacramentals, processions, liturgical language, sacred music, and the arts, but according to the fundamental norms laid down in this Constitution.

In other words, 'inculturation' can never contradict the strong traditions and decrees of the Church.

[ Jam, you're right, as well --- rock music is never mentioned! :-) ]

D) Norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples

37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples' way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

38. Provisions shall also be made, when revising the liturgical books, for legitimate variations and adaptations to different groups, regions, and peoples, especially in mission lands, provided that the substantial unity of the Roman rite is preserved; and this should be borne in mind when drawing up the rites and devising rubrics.

39. Within the limits set by the typical editions of the liturgical books, it shall be for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to specify adaptations, especially in the case of the administration of the sacraments, the sacramentals, processions, liturgical language, sacred music, and the arts, but according to the fundamental norms laid down in this Constitution.

40. In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed, and this entails greater difficulties. Wherefore:

1) The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter, carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individual peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should when be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.

2) To ensure that adaptations may be made with all the circumspection which they demand, the Apostolic See will grant power to this same territorial ecclesiastical authority to permit and to direct, as the case requires, the necessary preliminary experiments over a determined period of time among certain groups suited for the purpose.

3) Because liturgical laws often involve special difficulties with respect to adaptation, particularly in mission lands, men who are experts in these matters must be employed to formulate them.

This Video works for me....

And do another....with the music at Mass morphing from secular style to sacred...right in front of our eyes. Multiple examples, no narration required....

I like the video, and find it well-made. However, once again it is implied that only chant is sacred music, and that to be sacred, the text must be in Latin. I don't accept either position, and believe it marginalizes CMAA as anachronistic and a "fringe" organization. I do like the fact that you mentioned some of our, I think, illustrious modern composers who give their works to the Church for free. I realize, of course, it is hard to present hundreds of years of sacred music development in such a short video. But again, not being chant does not make it secular.

Nicely done.

I noticed one thing, and this may be nit-picky. But, when the narrator (I can't tell which twin) has her hands on her hips, her body language "looks" a bit angry. Maybe I see something that isn't there.

I can't wait to see the next installment. This video is great tool.

Wasn't talking to you, Noel. Merely commenting on a mostly excellent video.

Jeff,

As I understand the purpose of this video, it is not directed to the likes of us who visit this forum but to the uninitiated in need of persuasion. (I envision it being shown to typical parishioners not necessarily involved in a music program, but with perhaps the power to influence it.) The presentation must therefore assume a degree of skepticism by the viewer. An opinion such a viewer will probably hold is that liturgical music should employ the cultural language of the marketplace to win folks over. It is a classic misapplication of “inculturation.” Since you don’t have to use that word to address the problem, there may be less revision than I originally suggested. My apologies if I led the discussion off course.

Another suggestion is that the one example contrasting easy-to-sing versus difficult-to-sing music could be more clearly demonstrated. Remember not all viewers will read music or know what you’re talking about. I think you can do this effectively and without offending.

Also, the quotation about the supremacy of the organ perhaps needs justification – particularly since the organ’s widespread use was a rather late historical development. This can be tricky since so many parishes have substandard instruments that even organists don’t want to play.

Keep working on this. You’re on to something with great potential.

This is a wonderful video. I don't think there's much need to change anything in it, though "future installments" answering FAQs (< 5 mins ea.) would be welcome.

I essentially agree with you on most points. In my own musical work with a Catholic parish, I tend to seek the middle. I am leery of extremes because I have seen the damage they can do. I certainly think there is more to CMAA than just being the anti-NPM. We have, or should have, a broader base than that - again, avoiding extremes.

It's always a good thing to be aware of the situation you are currently working in, which is usually not ideal. A finger on the congregation's pules is also helpful. A music director who doesn't bother to keep up with what the congregation is thinking is usually headed for real trouble. Even in my "ultra-conservative" parish - which is how it is viewed in this diocese - I still have to use a hymnal with Haugen/Haas psalms and avoid a few hymns with heretical texts.

I am all for chant having first place, and find it especially suited for the ordinary parts of the mass. But I think one could read many posts on this forum, and hear mostly the words, chant, chant, chant, ... I am just pointing out that there is good sacred music that is neither chant nor polyphony. Although some of my favorite English and French sacred music does have its roots in chant and polyphony.

CharlesW,

I am curious if you noticed the part about Kevin Allen? That part speaks to some of your comments. It is towards the very end of the video.

I did notice that, and checked out his website since I am unfamiliar with him. It seemed to me that much of his church music, at a glance, is in Latin. I am going to look and listen to more of his compositions before making any comments. He definitely seems to be very talented.

What he said!

I cannot agree that Snow's Lord's Prayer is a great piece; in fact, I have long considered it to have been based upon a mistake. It is an adaptation of the Latin tone for the Pater noster, but the English has fewer syllables, and the adaptation most often keeps the cadential formulae, omitting the initial formulae. Thus when the Latin version rises (on Pater noster) the English descends (Our Father who art in heaven); similarly, the accented syllables of adveniat and voluntas and panem nostrum are on rising motion, while in English, they are on descending motion. The architypal motion of Gregorian melody is a rising motion followed by descent--some say it represents the ascent of prayer followed by an answer--but in the English Lord's prayer, descending motion prevails, it is a downer melodically. It has always seemed to me to be melodically upside down. I knew Robert Snow; he was a distinguished scholar of Spanish and Spanish-American polyphony. But this adaptation, in my opinion, was based upon a mistake.

@chonak:

I would suggest that, no matter what circumstance the Catholic finds himself in, ultimately, we have to be associated with the Cross in some way if we want to make it to Heaven and be with our Savior.

With regard to Church music, I would say that these days there are many difficulties to overcome, and it is not an easy path.

Also, I know for a fact that some people HAVE been fired from their job because they tried to do real Church music, instead of emotional, off-Broadway, jazzy, "Sacro-Pop" at Mass.

i think the video was good. possibly a little on the long side. i like the quotes that are included. i know some people who would benefit from viewing this film. i think the tone is pleasant.

I would have blurred the face of the dancer....to protect the guilty....

that's a nice site, ralph. have u gotten good response?

Trouble is, I know EXACTLY what certain folks around here would say: "You are talking about regulations, documents, and rules, we are talking about our SOULS and what feeds and moves them."

These people always take it right to the emotional, right down to how they can't hear "On Eagle's Wings" played without balling because it was played at their grandma's funeral and that is the power of liturgical music, etc et al. Then they point out that chant just doesn't have that power for them.

They will ALWAYS make it a preference issue and take the whole discussion back to square one.

Great video though.

Thought this was a great video. Circulated it to everyone involved in music ministry at my Parish. Since the firing of our music director nearly 1.5 years ago (and still no replacement), we have no formation within music ministry to speak of, so having this video provided a useful vehicle to get out an important message. Disappointed, but not surprised, that the only employee of the parish with music responsibilities (running the P&W Lifeteen program), well ... reacted strongly.

My daughter shared his new Facebook posting where he posted the video with quite the rant regarding the "horrendous" misuse of church documents by the uneducated who are causing damage to the "spirit" of Vatican II. In a word, sad.

Friends: as always, THANKS for the comments.

@CharlesW: I think the main thing is to try and start the discussion. After all, we don't play Gregorian chant at a Wedding reception. We don't play Verdi's Requiem in a coffee lounge. We don't play a slow folk tune at an exciting part of a movie. Etc. etc.

In other words, WHY is it that music ALWAYS has its proper place . . . except when it comes to Mass?

Like it or not, whether or not we hurt people's feelings, we eventually have to start asking the question: "Are all styles of music allowed at Mass? Yes or no?"

The current situation in many parishes is that ANY type of music, ANY style, played by ANY instruments are acceptable.

"In the video (above) we intentionally did not quote Pope Benedict XVI --- after all, everyone already knows where the current Pontiff stands on Gregorian chant at Mass, right?"

Well, even if everyone agrees, I think it's good to be reminded :-) I'd love to hear him again and again, and the Church's instructions, especially when I feel the big rock ahead of me and our schola. (The video is really good one for that.)

Your video helps many people even if some might not happy at first, it will make them think after the initial negative feelings. Truth remains.

This video will also help those who haven't heard of the Church's instructions, (I wish someone, like the music director, had told me about them when I started to do music in a local parish.)and those who are on the way to do more than just doing a job (a Job of hard work and low pay), and find the joyful vocation with sufferings and sacrifices.
Thanks Jeff O. for all your hard work and being persisitent. All the criticisms you get pave a path to our journey to Heaven.

Deo Gratias

No, lukewarm isn't so great either. My point is that working with congregations takes a great deal of tact and people skills. Sometimes well-intentioned musicians can do harm and set their objectives back years without realizing it, all because of their approach. Converts can be a mixed blessing. I have encountered convert musicians who have in their heads a romantic idealization of what they think the Church was like in some past, glory days. The Church doesn't stand still, it moves on, and probably wasn't at all like it is being imagined. The other extreme is the convert who has no understanding at all of what they Church does or is supposed to do musically. That usually creates a musical disaster.

I will enclose something Alexandr the good Russian sent to me some time ago, that will be familiar to any easterner. It's called the "convert disease."


"Evidently you have never met a true Mnogopravoslavnie convert. It goes like this: You are standing in the back of the Church, assisting the babyshki with their coats and filling the candle boxes. In walks in a young family. The father figure is in his early 30's, with hair in a pony tail and a beard that has not seen scissors in years. As he takes off his fur coat, he is wearing a rybashka with a belt, cossack pants and high boots (or if is really up there, oonychi- bast sandals!). Mama is next with not 1, but 3 scarves wrapped tightly around her head and wearing a hand stiched festival dress from Tula province. The children are all lined up, military fashion in maching rybashki and boots. They proceed to enter the Church, and fling themselves in full prostrations 3 times each as they light approx. 150 candles! As I approach them to let them know that they don't have to prostate for each candle, naturally I speak in Russian, assuming that they are straight off the boat from Dzedyshkagorod in the Northern Theibad. Much to my surprise, none of them speak Russian! It turns out that Barsenuphius Theophylact used to be Harry Smith, and is a convert from the Episcopal Church. Ok, all well and good. But during the service, one notices Barsenuphius becoming agitated. It appears that Father is not doing the full Monastic service. He has omitted several irmoi and polielai has been shortened to only 1/2 hour. Barsenuphius grabs his children in disgust and goes looking for a "True" Church that doesn't cater to people who are not willing to stand for 12 hour Saturday Vigil services. He has heard of a church only 300 miles away, under Archbishop Epitikimaximus, the last "true" bishop on earth, who does full Athonite style services everyday. There he is happy wearing his hair shirt, with 70 pounds of chains hanging around his neck, kneeling on bricks at home because his "starets", Bishop Epitikimaximus, has told him to mortify the flesh. But the telling this is, in 2 years, Barsenuphius Theophylact and his family are nowhere to be seen. He has decided that all Christians are heretics, and he and his family are now living in Tibet, practicing tantric Buddhism. Oh and Barsenuphius Theophylact is now called "OM".

This is what used to be known as the "Convert Disease"


Alexandr"