EF/NO...Eastern
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    My difficulty with the active participation in discussions of the EF and NO by Eastern Catholics is simple: I struggle continually trying to understand the NO, struggle because the EF is so clear cut when it comes to music, something that the church failed to establish in the NO.

    So in my mind it is very easy to get confused as I attempt to work within the NO and ask for help here and understand things. The comments of the Eastern brethren about the way they do things turns attention and discussion away from the issues of dealing with the NO.

    The fact that they do not feel the necessity for daily Eucharist and now mention of the lack of belief in the infallibility of the Pope shows that they want to talk about what they believe and what makes them different.

    So, list administrators...why not establish categories for the Eastern Forms...I am sure that there are people with interest in this subject.

    Give them a place to go about their business.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I changed the category for this thread, Noel.

    You raise a fair point; sometimes the discussion of Eastern practices becomes a distraction in threads that are intended to focus on details of the rites of the Latin church. The information that people give about the Eastern church may be perfectly correct, but it's often not helpful in answering the original question.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    I welcome the comments from the East! The Eastern liturgical aesthesis could not but be a wholesome and beneficial influence on the liturgy of the Catholic Church, whether of the EF or the NO. The belief that EF liturgy is always ipso facto exemplary is commonly held and is a myth. Noel is certainly correct in suggesting that THE great failure of the post Vatican II era is that of failing to require a given quality of music and rubrical clarity and obedience in the manner of celebrating the NO. But, requirements aside, the EF has (and has had always) its own catalogue of abuses. Any comments from a more sane liturgical world should be more than welcome here. And ,in addition to the Eastern radiance there is that of the Anglican Use, not to mention our very own Uniats, who get all too little press.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    A terminology note: "Uniate" is considered a derogatory term; it used to be deployed toward Eastern Catholics with the suggestion that they were in communion with the Holy See mainly for political or economic reasons. Furthermore, some Eastern Catholics (e.g., Maronites) have never been separated from unity with the Holy See, so the term "Uniate" is irrelevant for them.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Noel is mistaken on a point or two. Eastern Catholics accept papal infallibility, the Orthodox do not. I think much of the confusion on the NO, is from a lack of leadership from RC bishops. The rules are there, just not followed. How many places can you visit where the GIRM, supposedly the liturgical law in the U.S., is not followed? Is it ignorance, or just disobedience.

    As far as being distracted by the east, that sounds more like an inability to focus. How do you ever get anything done if you are distracted that easily? Jackson is also correct, that the Anglican Use has much to offer to the rest of the church. It is an under-appreciated treasure.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I am not mistaken, I am mentioning something that came up in a discussion that had nothing to do with the infallibilty and was confusing...as it seems that this was an Orthodox thing, not an Eastern one....just another indication about how discussions focused upon the Latin Rite are being cluttered with comments that have nothing to do with the Latin Rite.

    How do I focus when the discussions move towards the East? Or Orthodox? I give up and drop out. I stop posting and now hesitate EVERY time before I hit ADD YOUR COMMENTS and 90% of the time do not submit my posting to even simple discussions about anything.

    I stop posting.

    So I get things done by not participating in this list.

    So simply, I see that I am mistaken, the RC Bishops lack leadership, the GIRM is not being followed, I have an inability to focus, I am easily distracted, Jackson is correct, Anglican Use has much to offer to the rest of the church, and that CharlesW has no opinion on the subject of this discussion.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Always the drama. You should be on Oprah. LOL.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    From what I read from this forum is that music and Liturgy of Anglican Use are very close to Latin Rite and info. from them is helpful.

    Maybe establishing categories for the Eastern Forms can invite those who are interested in Eastern rites and participate more in exchanging ideas on the Eastern rites. Those sporadic comments just for the sake of criticism on OF and latin rites in general don't seem to help here so much. OF doens't have the tradition as EF yet, and I believe we are all here to help to continue the beautiful and sacred tradition of Latin rites into OF as well as EF.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Mia, I think you have touched on a key difference. The OF is not the EF, and most in the OF don't want it to be. With the wider availability of the EF, those attracted to it should probably be there. That doesn't mean the OF can't be beautiful and reverent, but it is not an imitation of the EF. Some would even call it a different rite - actually, some have called it a different rite. I don't know if I totally agree, but I think the vernacular OF mass is here to stay, so I try to make it the best musically that I can.

    Yes, the Anglican Use is gorgeous, and very similar to the EF.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    ......
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Off topic, but apparently that's irrelevant now.
    The tensions and pettifoggery rampant in what was an interesting thread (now impossible to track) represent the curve into implosion that so many LitMus forums have already succumbed to over the years. I don't think failure is an option for this forum. But the irony of the timing of this decadence with all that is happening in "CatholicLand" happily trumpeted by the NY Times et al, makes this turn even more pernicious.
    It's actually amazing that it hasn't come up for ridicule at other sensible blogs......yet.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Like Mr. Osborn said, I thought that "the reform of the reform" might could be helped by taking a look at its own Eastern rites, which are not liturgically confused nearly to the same degree, or the Orthodox East which never had a "protestant reformation" to muddle things up. From what I have seen, Pope Benedict thinks very highly of the East.

    I can understand if the Orthodox are unwelcome here. After all, this is a predominantly Catholic forum. But the West IS in communion with certain parts of the East; ergo, what Easterners do is accepted by Catholicism as perfectly legitimate practice. I don't think anyone here wants to turn Westerners into Easterners. The idea is that we can learn from each other.

    Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a forum section dedicated to discussing Eastern liturgical practices. I will of course endeavor to hold my tongue from now on everywhere else, and not talk about the East or the Orthodox anymore. But now for some reason I feel that nothing I say even matters, even if it is about things I love--Latin, Gregorian chant, the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great--because I am an outsider. Fine, then. I will always be an outsider. It is hostile attitudes on both sides that have kept this schism deepening for a thousand years, and I was, perhaps, naive to think that I could approach a Catholic place and find at least a small measure of common ground to stand on.

    Yes, I am a schismatic (from the Catholic perspective), and I have the gall to come here and comment from time to time on y'all's liturgy. I'm sorry. I wish the schism never happened, but what can I do? Where can I go to love Latin and Gregorian chant if not here?
  • Rebecca Bridget C-
    Posts: 79
    Dear Jam, I do hope you don't feel like an outsider. Speaking for myself, and for no one else, I always enjoy having a point of comparison with a variety of liturgical rites, including the Greek, Antiochian, Russian, Maronite, and Anglican, among others. I think tempers are just high today, and personalities are getting mixed with forum etiquette discussions, doctrinal disagreements, and political situations in a heady and unsavory mix.


    Friends, it makes sense for all of us to be careful to keep a thread closely on topic, whenever making a comment. It seems to me comments about Eastern practice are no more or less likely to be off topic than other comments. A special section devoted to particularly Eastern topics is probably a good way to make even more space for such discussion on the forum. But if we look carefully, I think we'll find that sidewinder comments are being made in threads in huge variety. It isn't an East/West thing; it's an internet thing. Off-topic posts happen.

    But, this is now stretching across several threads, starting to garner comments about "straightening out" various churches, and we are starting to bait each other, intentionally bringing up contentious issues. If I were a newcomer arriving today, I'm not sure I'd stick around.

    Respectfully yours,
    Rebecca
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Jam: I hope that you do not drop out, nor hold your tongue. The cross-pollination with a more sane liturgical praxis is good; and the banter is all in good sport and fair play. So far as I can tell, only one person is not pleased with it. Also, this forum is a Catholic forum, not just a Latin rite one. (I stand to be corrected.) It can only be of benefit to be able to call attention to the manner in which liturgy is sung and celebrated with rubrical reverence in the Orthodox east, the Eastern rite and Anglican Use Catholic. Latin Catholicism is, at this time, in great need of liturgical tutelage, wherever it comes from. This is not in the least to denigrate the Latin rite - it is simply a recognition that, as most of us here know, the Latin rite is in a state of disrepair. One might add that this state of disrepair is due largely to ignorance of what is expected in the celebration of liturgy, and in large part to the wreckage which has been the deliberate work of large numbers of priests, prelates, religious, 'liturgists' lay and otherwise, and 'musicians'. So let us point with brotherly affection to the liturgy of the East and the other Catholic uses and rites and profit from their practice.

    P.S. - Chonak, Thanks for the comment about uniates. I would never have thought this was a derogatory term. I have used it respectfully all my life. I even have several Alcuin Club tracts about the 'Uniates'.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I don't object to being called a Uniate, because I am proudly in union with the Holy Father. In some places, however, it is a term used to put down Catholics. I am thinking of Ukraine as one example. Some object to the term because it has been used to brand them as unpatriotic or traitors in some of the eastern European and Slavic countries.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    has this issue been resolved, or not?

    I feel like it hasn't been, and the fact that this thread has been abandoned mid-thought is unsettling. Will a new board be created? Will any Easterners be censored? Will Noel and others continue to be annoyed? Will all these arguments explode again sometime in the future? That's what I'm afraid of.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    For my part, the arguments exploded when a rash comment was made. I don't have any frustrations about general discussion of different rites. However, it seems to me that although we are all guests here, like family guests at a Thanksgiving table, those who are not in communion with us are more like friends of the family. It's up to all of us to be hospitable and for the invited guests to be on their best behavior. That's my take on things, though I would defer to the consensus or PTB if I'm seeing the situation wrongly. In any case, while I doubt censorship is the answer, a certain delicacy might not be out of line.

    I also think that the second person plural form--in any dialect--tends to sound accusatory. I can't imagine a situation in which that is necessary. Why not use a specific, collective noun (the Orthodox, Byzantine Catholics, etc.) instead of a pronoun?

    I also think that it usually doesn't help a heated discussion for people with no stake in it, and no understanding of what is at stake, intervene. And they should bring enough popcorn to share with the rest of the class.

    Otoh, I think talking in a low-key way about the different rites can be very fruitful.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Yikes. Let's everyone just "chill" for Holy Week. Especially in a year when we have the good fortune to share the same date for Easter/Pascha. So, take a deep breath and let some things go.

    As someone who has either belonged to or worked in every church that didn't involve handling live snakes, I find all points of view enriching as long as they stay focused on music.

    And remember, today is E. Power Biggs' birthday!
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    I agree with the above. That is definitely part of this and something we will have to work on. We also will benefit from "chilling" during this Great and Holy Week.

    However, I'm wondering if there will be a specific board created to discuss Eastern rites, or if we will continue by only discussing ritual differences when they seem relevant. Even in discussions of the EF/NO (especially the NO, which was a reform in itself, and seemed to look to the East in some instances).

    But rash comments are made about lots of things here, not just East/West drama. I've seen EF/NO drama as well and seemingly conservative/liberal drama. When we talk about something as basically and beautifully important to us as liturgy, emotions are bound to get involved sometimes. It is our job to make sure we don't give our emotions free reign, especially in an atmosphere of intellectual discussion, which allows for disagreements. I will of course endeavor from now on to achieve that "certain delicacy" Kathy speaks of.

    However, concerning the interventions of the popcorn-eaters... sometimes it really helps in a discussion to have an impartial arbitrator, to have someone who does not have stake in the argument help us see past the emotional blinders we have put on. Although they ought to share the popcorn of course. ;)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I actually don't mind when the Orthodox and Catholic Easter dates don't coincide: how else could we visit one another's services?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I just want to know more about the live snakes.

    I know it's a bit early, but Hristos voskrese!
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    We did not mean to cause harm, only trying to get an understanding of the core issues. As a newcomer, and part of the Thanksgiving table (btw could you please pass the peas?), it is important to me that I get to know these issues. Although I wouldn't assume that I/we "had no stake" in the discussion. Isn't this how we get to know each other better, by understanding where each is coming from? I also find that humor will often diffuse a heated, contentious situation and so threw in the popcorn as an attempt at such. Please accept my heartfelt apology for not sharing with the rest of the class. Perhaps this, next time some dreary weather ensues and you wish to cozy up to a nice documentary: http://simplyrecipes.com/recipes/perfect_popcorn/

    Best wishes for a "chill" Holy week,
    Mandee
  • amanda.palisteramanda.palister
    Posts: 82
    Though it is common knowledge that some of ya'll prefer Doritos.... ;)
    *ducks and runs for cover*
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Kathy: Voistinu Voskrese! It is early, but we do know what's coming. :) that is how we are able to bear what comes before...!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Gone off-topic and sunk.
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