Jeffrey, its a tragedy that it wasn't released. I saw a copy of the english version once and copied by hand some of the solfege exercises, but even a quick and rather casual perusal was enough to make me realise it was pure genius. Mrs. Ward WAS correct in her assessment of Mlle. Hertz, it really was the perfection of the Ward Method. Sadly, once the misunderstanding about the english translation was cleared up by Mrs Ward herself in the early 70's, the Ward centers in Britain and France had closed, and Mrs Ward herself was ill and very old. About 10 copies of the english version survive, the others were destroyed (Thousands of copies had already been printed and bound by a publisher in Britain). Dr Mary Berry, who as Mother Thomas More had done the translation, was always fearful until the very end of her life of letting anyone see them for fear of legal consequences by the Ward estate and the Mocquereau Foundation, even though the original french version was published and used in the francophone Ward centers in Europe. Dr Berry was very concerned that the work of Odette Hertz would be forgotten and when she heard that the Ward Method was making a come back in the U.S. in the 1990's she often remarked that it was a pity that they didn't have Hertz's book in its english translation. She was certain that Hertz's work would ensure the modern success of the Ward Method and carry it on to the 21st century.

I believe that if it were possible for the Mocqureau Foundation or whoever has the legal rights to the Ward Method books were to write a letter releasing the english translation, Dr Mary Berry's estate would most likely make available the only copies Dr Berry was able to secretly hide. My fear is that this should be done as soon as possible, as I am nearly sure that the executors of Dr Berry's estate are unaware of the potential treasure that remains in a cardboard box in her house!

Even if a french version of Odette Hertz's work(s) could be found, which is far more likely, there are many of us who could make use of them if they were scanned

This sounds so exciting, Jeffrey. That would be wonderful if it could be printed (the English, I mean, my French is rotten).

In the high time of Ward Method, approximately how many Ward Method Centers were there?

Odette was employed at the Institut Catholique de Paris. I wonder if there are any archives there.

I just spoke with my mother. We have not heard from Odette's brother, Gerard, for three or more years.

Mother remembers Odette telling her that Justine had gotten paranoid. Justine ordered Odette to stop teaching children [which Odette refused] also threatened Odette legally to stop spreading the method.

The combined heartbreak of Odette's mentor turning on her along with the inexplicable changes in the Church's approach to music must have been devastating at the time.

Also does anyone know if it is true that this method was actually the brainchild of Justine's husband, as my mother remembers Odette saying this?

A legal threat. One of many. A sure way to kill an idea, a movement, a dream. This is deeply tragic. We wonder what happened to the work of many decades to push the chant. Well, here is part of the answer.

Some time ago while I was taking Ward training , the instructor commented that Justine Ward's method was acclaimed in many places. In one country in Europe, Ward was told by secular education authorities that they knew that her method was far superior to other methods, that they wanted to place her method officially in the govt.schools there, but that she had to take out the "God stuff." She was incensed, refused to do so, and told them that the "God stuff" is the reason that the Ward Method works! I think the country was France, and whether this was stated directly to Mrs. Ward, or through Odette Hertz, I do not know. But it seemed that Mm. Hertz was trying to persuade Mrs. Ward to remove the "God stuff." This may have been the source of the difficulties between them. I discussed this with a relative of Mm. Hertz, but the relative had no knowledge of any difficulties. Mm. Hertz is mentioned in the Ward biography. It would be interesting to see the English translations of Mm. Hertz on Ward method, spoken of above, to see whether there were any changes made in the "God stuff."

Well, Jeff, Ward lives despite the tension, real or not :) ! If the Hertz English translation eventually becomes available to us, I would simply like to see where the differences, if any, lie.

We should remember that the french edition of Mlle. Hertz's book was used for years in France, with the obvious approval of Mrs Ward. Indeed, it was this very book which led her to believe that Hertz understood her method better than she (Mrs. Ward) herself. The problems only began at the time of the english translation, and this seems to have been started by someone in close proximity to Mrs Ward in the U.S. who played upon her obsessions. Unfortunately, it was Mrs Ward herself who shut down the Ward Centers in Britain and in France. To Mrs Ward's credit, she recognised her error not long before the end of her life and reconciled with the former head of Ward Method Studies in Britain, Mother Thomas More/Dr Mary Berry, though I am not sure how things were resolved if they ever were with Odette Hertz.

In the Combes book, JUSTINE WARD AND SOLESMES, mention is made of a similar situation, though this took place in the 1920's. Dom Mocquereau had asked the great and learned future Abbess of Stanbrook Abbey, Dame Laurentia McLoughlin to translate his NOMBRE MUSICAL GREGORIEN. She disagreed with her translation and had Dom M. take the Abbess off the work. Mrs Ward was a major benefactor of Solesmes, and generally what she asked for she received. After Mocquereau's death in 1930, she was referred to by the monks of Solesmes as "La veuve (widow) Mocqureau for her rather obsessive dedication to his rhythmic principles, more so than even he himself was.

Too, we should remember that the Ward Method was not only used for learning Chant but music in general. If I remember correctly, the Ward Method started with modern notation and folk songs and then moved on into Chant and Chant notation only in the 4th year. I don't remember too much "God stuff" in those first books (published in the 20's and 30's), certainly there were a few hymns for sol-fege practice, as there were melodies by Mozart and Bach and folk tunes.

My interest in making available the english translation of Hertz's work is simply to help those interested in Ward Method in general, a work, at least in its french edition, that was very much approved of by Mrs Ward herself. From what I saw, albeit briefly, Hertz's book was nothing radical, and all the old Ward Method things were carried on through.

Interesting point, Elizabeth, about the 'God stuff'. This could have gone many paths for different reasons. Catholic schools certainly would not have had a problem with the 'God stuff'. Secular schools back then had less religious issues than today [sheesh, my second grade teacher taught us "We are climbing Jacob's Ladder" LOL and in fourth or fifth grade I was taught about the Bible by the local Baptist minister's wife, and we all remember grade-school Christmas songs in the 60s. How things have changed today.] Maybe for daily teaching Odette saw the practicalities of teaching all children this ear-training method no matter what kind of music was used. Perhaps the point wasn't that Odette wanted to remove the 'God stuff' but that she wanted to expand the method to everybody. Or it could all be about Justine's failing mental outlook or the lawsuit mentality that was affecting the musical world.

Our family never got the impression that Odette was fascinated by anything other than chant. It would be interesting to find out more about this.

Mother has the impression that Odette was extremely close to to the nuns of a nearby convent after the break with Justine - likely because they cherished the method she taught. Wish we knew what convent this was!

Odette was devoted to Justine and did everything her mentor asked of her. Odette was unable to resolve the difficulties with Justine although she tried. Mother remembers Odette being extremely upset but did not know the depth of her troubles. We aren't aware that the two ever reconciled, but it is possible.

Jeffrey Tucker has discussed music lawsuits revolving around control in some of his articles on Church music, and how this set the stage for today's popular publisher-controlled music. I wonder if there was any correlation in influences in Justine's efforts. I don't have a time line so maybe I'm adding confusion here.

Very interesting comments by all.

I did some snooping at the Boston Archdiocesan Choir School this evening thinking I might come across either the English or French edition of the Hertz book mentioned by Jeffrey Morse, but to no avail. John Dunn, the emeritus director, knew of the author but didn't think he had ever seen a copy of her book at the school.

Expanding on what has been said above, the Ward method has been adapted to meet the specific needs of the BACS boys. The fifth graders are trained in books 1 & 2, but beyond that the method diminishes in importance in the curriculum. Granted, he boys are not your run of the mill students, but the grounding of the Ward method prepares the boys to be agile sight readers. As an example, we are performing the Duruflé "Requiem" this spring and I've been told they are taking to the piece without any difficulty.

Were Odette's books teaching how to teach Ward? Wouldnt' it be wonderful if we could have a resource like that?

I've been through the Ward Program at CUA. I agree with Elizabeth - just looking at the books and trying to self teach is difficult.

In all honesty, though, I question the viability of implementing the Ward method as conceived in Mrs. Ward's books in this day and age. It sounds like a cop out, but for it to work its full magic on children, it would need to be taught to them every day.

On the plus side, I do think the pedagogy is wonderful. And a wonderful trick to add to your bagful-of-em as a musician. I'd be willing to share my experience and knowledge with anyone interested.

AOZ, I do think it would be hard to implement. I did have some experience a while ago, and most schools don't all the daily teaching on music. I had only once or twice a week to teach music, and it wasn't totally effective. I tried teaching homeschoolers, but again, not having the daily contact I think lessens the impact and growth. But I do find it is an amazing method, with great response and results. I just wish I had more experience and more time to do it properly.

Elizabeth, I met you in Front Royal after a morning Mass. You shared a little of your experience teaching homeschoolers to me briefly. I'd love to discuss more of that with you, but you didn't share your email address in your profile. Would you mind shooting me a note privately, please?

Thank you TinainAshburn for your memories of your relative and for investigating with family members. Randolph Nichols, I so appreciate you taking the time to snoop, thank you very much. I really appreciate ALL your comments. As this was the first time I ever started a discussion, I wasn't sure what to expect or if it would be of any interest.

I knew Dr Mary Berry/Mother Thomas More for over 25 years. The last two times I was in Cambridge, England to see her as I knew she was ill (though showing few effects it must be noted), Dr Berry made a point to talk to me about Odette Hertz, about her work, and her fear that Hertz's work would be forgotten. Dr Berry was devoted to the Ward Method and how it taught the young to sing, I saw her use it countless times and not just with the young, but with priests, nuns, friars and lay people of every age. I remember her telling me of one elderly Carmelite nun she was working with who stunned her by telling her that for the first time in her religious life she actually enjoyed singing office, and this all from a little Ward Method taught through the grills in the monastery parlour! Dr Berry was so adept at the Ward Method and understood it so well, that Mrs Ward was constantly sending over streams of students to study with her, even Theodore Marier in the very early 1960's. It is for this reason I really listened to her high praise of the work of Odette Hertz Since Dr Berry's death in 2008, i've thought that perhaps something might be done to bring the work of Mlle Hertz (Dr Berry ALWAYS referred to her as "mademoiselle" as did others) to the fore. I am sure that her work is not groundbreaking, but according to Dr Berry, Hertz's work really could carry the Ward Method on to a new generation and into the 21st century. Being one of Dr Berry's few American students, I got the feeling she felt it was up to me to do something. The Ward Method started in American, by an American, and what remained of the Ward Method remained centered mostly in America.

Again, thank you all most kindly for helping me in this little task, which must be admitted ihas been made most enjoyable with all of your comments and help!

Hello all.
Eh eh I could buy the french version... One good news is that at least part of it was (silently) brought into the official CUA 1981 edition, like the detailed contents of the first 5 days, or photographs of children singing or making the gestures. So all has not been lost.

Hello, Angela
in each chapter there are several ear and eye tests of graded difficulty, so that all children should be able to get the easier ones and the most advanced children could be tested against the more difficult ones (longer or with a less straightforward melody), that's why. I do not state they are graded from left to right nor from top to bottom, you have to find out by yourself.