Liturgical question
  • I was thinking of using Grieg's Ave maris stella for Vespers on Purification, but I realize now that he did not set all the strophes. He skips nos. 2, 4 and 5. Is this grounds for rejecting it?
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    If the hymn is required for Purification (don't have Liber handy), then all verses of the hymn should be sung if the Office is going to fulfill anyone's canonical obligation. You can fill in the extra verses from the chant. There are a couple of chant versions in the Cantus selecti.
  • Chrism, thanks, I suspected as much. I don't think this Vespers will fulfill anyone's obligation since the priests must use the current LOTH I believe. The setting doesn't really allow for interpolation and the tune is quite different, but it could tried, I guess.
  • Michael, actually, according to the Motu Proprio, those bound to the praying of the Divine Office can indeed opt for the older Roman Office and fulfill their obligation. I can see how the Grieg poses a bit of a problem. The French in large part before the Council would have the organist improvise on the alternate verses, therefore, letting the organ "sing" those verses. This was commonly done with the hymn, the Magnificat, and the repetition of the antiphon during the singing of the psalms. So that technically, really only every other verse was actually sung/labialised. This was condemned by the Vatican, quite unsuccessfully it must be said, for centuries. One of the first mentions of this practice is the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and I recently discovered a letter of St Teresa of Avila alluding to the practice in the mid 1500's in Spain. We have a rather stunning 20th century example in Marcel Dupre's famous 15 improvisations on the the Office of Our Lady, and the last time I was in France I noticed the tradition continues where I heard the organ trading off with the choir in the Victimae Paschali, so that technically only half the text was sung.

    I mention this to help in your decision as to whether you should use the Grieg for a liturgy such as Vespers. Clearly, if one is to use a version that is incomplete, liturgical history would at least require (wrongly or rightly) that the verses not being sung be filled in with improvising organ for the missing verses. I cannot, myself, imagine this with the Grieg. The Grieg Ave Maris would fall into the catagory of anthem/motet that one could use as an extra after the proper antiphon was sung at Mass for example, but for Vespers this is certainly dodgy at best.

    There are some lovely versions by Victoria and Palestrina (to name just two) that provide polyphony for verses alternating with the Chant for the Ave Maris Stella which were written just for the Office of Vespers and would add great solemnity to your Vespers and provide you with the complete text!
  • P. Scriptum-

    I DO realise that Grieg was not French, I simply mentioned the French custom as a way one could possibly deal with missing verses. Good luck with your Vespers!
  • Hi Jeffrey,

    Yes, you are correct, the practice of playing organ verses (or using the cathedral instrumental ensemble) was quite common in 16th century Spain and even earlier in Germany. This was done with just about any prayer that was sung in alternatim, including the Salve. You are probably right about the Grieg, but that's too bad. It's quite lovely. I have a setting by Liszt that I will probably substitute. The Renaissance settings are wonderful, but the choir I am using is not very good at learning polyphony quickly yet. Even for good singers, it takes some getting used to. We'll be using the nice falsobordone Viadana and probably the Liszt along with plainchant for this one. Many thanks.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Is this the Lizst we sang on the last day of last Colloquium? It's late, and my memory fails me just now

    Donna
  • I wasn't there last year, but it's the version that I found on CPDL (unfortunately not the same one on my Sixteen CD)
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    And also Dufay and Josquin. The Liszt was done at the Colloquium this year.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    That Lizst setting was beautiful. Glad you reminded me of that. Hope I canfind it again. The current state of my office does not bode well.
    Donna
  • I guess Liszt wrote more than one, since the recording done by the Sixteen is not the same as the CPDL setting I found. I'm glad to have the opportunity to explore his sacred music. I'd love to do either Dufay or Josquin, but this choir isn't quite up to it in the short time for preparation. I also love the Monteverdi version from the 1610 Vespers.
  • Jeffery and Michael:

    If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the longstanding French Practice of Alternatim Praxis outlawed by PP Pius X in his motu priorio in the early 1900's? Not that it's "bad" in a historical setting, but using it as an excuse to not have the choir sing the chant is probably to be frowned upon?

    (And this coming from an organist who loves nothing more than improvisation between verses...)
  • Carlos, the MOTU PROPRIO of Pius X did nothing to diminish the practice of alternatim in France where it even still continues in some churches in our day. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it has a history and a certain precedent going back at least 500 years. The french have always sort of thumbed their noses at certain liturgical laws coming from Rome, I'm thinking in particular of the use of the organ and other instruments during Advent and Lent/Holy Week not to mention during requiems. The prohibition of the organ during these times is and has been roundly ignored, especially in the traditional chapels and churches and this seems to hold with alternatim. Perhaps this comes from a time, not really so long ago, where many of the dioceses in France had their own rite or use. The Rite of Paris, just to mention one, certainly survived into the 20th century.