• In our diocese the holy water has been removed from churches, and Communion on the tongue forbidden because of the H1N1 flu scare.

    Also, because of concern regarding the manner of receiving Holy Communion, our bishop has suspended all public celebrations of the Latin Mass.

    Is anyone experiencing anything similar?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    What confusion!

    But there is a bit of good news about this issue. A few days ago, a letter from a CDWDS official appeared on the web, making clear that the right of the faithful to receive the Eucharist on the tongue cannot be denied: it is, after all, the normative method.

    This web page has an image of the letter suitable for printing. It couldn't hurt to share copies of it with your pastor and your bishop, to help them clear up any misunderstandings.

    As for suspending celebrations of the Extraordinary Form of Mass, I expect that the Ecclesia Dei Commission in Rome would be concerned about that. Even if the faithful were not to receive Communion at the Mass, priests would still have the right to celebrate Mass in that form.

    By the way, here in Boston, the restrictions imposed were quite proper: no hand shaking; no Communion from the cup, except for persons with celiac and similar conditions; faithful were merely urged to receive Communion by hand (of course this would not apply in the EF). Some parishes emptied their holy water fonts.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    This diocese: http://rcec.london.on.ca/ apparently didn't get the memo.

    "Pandemic Planning in the Diocese of London
    Current Status: Phase 1
    Temporary withdrawal of Communion from the cup
    No Communion on the tongue
    Hand sanitizers at the doors of the church
    At the greeting of peace recommend a greeting and an acknowledgement but no shaking of the hands
    Encourage parishioners to stay home if they exhibit flu-like symptoms
    Parishes should prepare for Phase 2"
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    When a bishop is not in Communion with the Holy Father, he deserves no obedience. Hopefully some pastors in these benighted dioceses will recognize this and allow Communion on the tongue in a manner that doesn't upset those who have been terrified by the hype surrounding this mild flu. For example, communicants who wish to receive on the tongue can place themselves at the absolute rear of the line.

    It is disgusting that your bishop suspended the TLM over this. I think I know who your bishop is and am surprised by his shameful behavior, given his previous outspoken defense of orthodoxy in the face of public opinion. I would imagine that very few pastors in your diocese will be willing to stand up to the bishop now, even quietly. One very reasonable alternative is to go Byzantine. If there are no Byzantine churches within driving distance, then your options are very limited. There is no reason whatsoever why Communion outside of Mass should need to be in the hand.

    Also understand that as part of the suffering Church, we pray for you every day at Mass.
  • Tell the families of deceased victims that H1N1 is a "mild flu." There have been several deaths attributed to this virus - of all ages by the way - in the my area. I also question the wisdom of advocating disobedience to a bishop's directives, however ill-advised they may be, regarding the distribution of communion. TLM is still something very much on the periphery of American liturgical practice and antagonizing the mainstream on a matter of temporary concern hardly helps the cause. The angry responses this past week to Kenneth Wolfe's not-so-well-written op-ed piece in the NYTimes indicates how far TML devotees remain from acceptance.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Mr. Nichols, the normal flu kills way more people a year than H1N1 has so far. Is it healthy middle-aged folks dying too or mostly old people, children, and immuno-compromised people, just like with the normal flu? which do you mean by "all ages," I guess is what I'm asking. I know it's nastier than the normal flu because the fever is usually higher, but I've known lots of people who got it (including children) and no one I know personally has died. I don't think it deserves nearly the hype everyone is giving it.
  • The victims in the Boston area have been mostly children and college age adults. A gentlemen in his sixties died last week from H1N1 in one of the western suburbs. Who is to say, maybe the maligned hype prevented other deaths.
    The morning Boston Globe reports that the epidemic is on the wane. Good thing, the promised vaccine never materialized.

    One liturgical good has come from this. I have heard many comment that a non-contact sign of peace seems more respectful and sincere.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Through the grace of God we have seen the threatened pandemic prove far less deadly, thus far, than had been feared. But the Centers for Disease Control has itself declined to take a stand on the issue of the danger posed, or not, by communion. Their unwillingness to do so demonstrates that there is uncertainty, and bishops who vary in their responses to the perceived danger are fulfilling their responsibility to their flock as they see fit.

    Our right to receive communion at all, let alone in one stance or another, is not absolute. If smoke and flames are billowing from the sacristy, the priest would have every right to halt the communion procession and ask people to leave in a calm and orderly fashion. Influenza might be seen as a less immediate threat, but its potential for fatalities is no less.

    Sometimes prudence is not a bad thing.
  • Chrism:

    Many thanks.

    Chonak:

    Thank you for the link.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Well, if this isn't about Calgary, then there's a terrible trend.

    The story exploded overnight, and there are more updates on Rorate and WDTPRS.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Randolph,

    I would question the wisdom of anyone who obeys his bishop over Rome--even if he agrees with him.
  • Reception on the hand or one the tongue spreads germs, so I don't get this at all. A smarter idea might be to restrict the sign of peace handshakes in the pews. And a bishop going against Rome is scandalous, of course.

    Randolph, I'm glad you have charity toward the families of H1N1 victims- you are right there. Why you felt the need to marginalize people who love the EF, I'm not so sure, and wish you'd applied the same charitable tone.

    I'm not a traditionalist, but I love the EF and I prefer to receive Communion on the tongue. This isn't so abnormal in my part of the country. So chalking it all up to the idea of 'that pesky minority' got my Irish up.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Not that I'm saying bishops ought to disobey Rome, but man you guys, Rome does everything, it seems. What's a bishop's job then? Just to carry out orders from Rome?
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    yea jam, pretty much.
  • A bishop's primary job is to *teach* the flock in his diocese. There are several smaller and/or prudential matters in which he has particular authority, like whether to use female altar servers in his diocese, etc.

    Rome will clarify questions (like the CDWDS did in this case) but doesn't give too many orders. I see where you're coming from, and how it could appear, but in the internal workings of dioceses bishops have significant decision making tasks.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Singing Mum, I don't think Randolph himself marginalized EF devotees, he simply stated a fact - that they (already? still?) are on the margins, that they have not yet been thoroughly accepted, as evidenced by the establishment of the Liturgical-Industrial complex going after Kenneth Wolfe.
    And, I might say, as evidenced by some bishops' attitude towards the TLM , those who celebrate it, and those who love it.
    Traditionalists would do well to be wary of giving anyone an excuse to further marginalize them.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Yeah, G, I know I got cranky. Its always hard to assume intentions in a format like this. But it seemed to me that Randolph's in his first post was sort of dismissing the concerns of folks who receive on the tongue (as is the universal norm of the Church, to step out of Am. for a second). And its no small thing that Rome seems to back up the folks on this, what with the letter from the CDWDS.

    I'd gladly shake Randolph's hand if I got to meet him. This is the sentence that still bugs me a bit, but its not a hill I'd die on, either: 'TLM is still something very much on the periphery of American liturgical practice and antagonizing the mainstream on a matter of temporary concern hardly helps the cause.'

    I don't see how the mainstream is antangonized. If most people receive on the hand, why should it bug them in the least?

    Again, I'm not a traditionalist but I don't like to see these good people in our Church dismissed, especially on this matter.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I don't see how the mainstream is antangonized. If most people receive on the hand, why should it bug them in the least?


    That's the 64 million dollar question, isn't it?
    No reason, they have no reason whatsoever-- but there it is.

    Why, since there was no suggestion that anyone would ever be mandated to attend one, was the freeing of the Extraordinary Form such a bone of contention?

    Why do some people... and I use this word deliberately.... HATE it?

    Perhaps it's the incorrigible adolescent in me but the irrational aversion to it, from certain quarters, is one of the things that most draws me to the EF.

    I know someone who got into a knock-down drag-out with his sons' 1st communion catechist when he told here it was his family's practice to receive communion on the tongue; because she had already decided and instructed the children that they were all to receive in the hand.

    I know this fellow can be, and probably was, a complete jacka** about this, (what can I say, we share DNA?) but I'm also quite certain of the facts in the case.
    Why do some of those comfortable with more moderate levels of reverence feel threatened by those who go to more extreme lengths?

    I don't know why, but the only rationale I can come up with is that they sense a reproach to their own practice.

    Whether the reproach is being somehow expressed by others or is merely their own guilty conscience, I cannot say. It probably varies from person to person.

    This may be analogous -- I don't veil, as a rule, or wear hats very often.
    I notice, (particularly at the Colloquium!) many women do, and it seems that more are doing so all the time.
    I have never sensed any untoward attitude toward me and my bare head from those who do veil.

    But a friend has ranted and raved about "those people" and their "burqas," and she thinks she receives "nasty looks."

    I suppose it is possible that I am emotionally tone-deaf, or so full of myself that I would never notice others' disapproval, but my suspicion is that she is perceiving something that isn't there -- that any criticism she is drawing is actually from herself on account of her own sloppiness in practice and devotion.

    Sorry for the long OT ramble...

    And I don't think you were cranky, just misreading his intention. (ON t'other hand, if I AM emotionally tone-deaf, I'm likely the one misreading....)

    Save the Liturgy, Save the World
  • MA, Singing Mum

    I would be happy to shake your hand but I came down with the flu yesterday so it may not be a wise move. How’s that for irony! The illness is settling in my lungs, so it could very well be H1N1.

    Gauging the tone of internet communications is treacherous and therefore one must always be vigilant to perceived meaning. The intent of my previous comment had less to do with whether communion should be received on the tongue during a health crisis than the inability of Latin Mass supporters to access accurately their position in the broader community and to judge the effectiveness of their public engagements. Though the TLM may enjoy more support in other geographical areas, it is more often than not the subject of ridicule and derision here in the greater Boston region - particular from some prominent newspaper and media personalities. I’m thinking of popular local columnists like James Carroll and television journalist Emily Rooney (Andy’s daughter). They make no attempt to hide their distain. So while there are three or four parishes offering TLM in my archdiocese, to say that TLM is “peripheral” to New England culture is merely stating the obvious. I think the phenomenon applies elsewhere as well.

    I perhaps misled you into thinking I have no use for the Latin Mass. Far from it, I am old enough to remember with fondness when the old rite was the norm. I also remember the abuses. Because of the latter, the intentions of most reformers were honorable. My objection is not with TLM, but rather with a tendency of some to skew history and reject offhand strengths of the NO.

    Because of this, TLM needs better public relations management. For example, though it is a common feature of cyberspace liturgical commentary to cite passages from Church documents as if they fall under the purview of papal infallibility or the dogmatic authority of the Magisterium. The pope has said it therefore it is law! Discussion’s over. This is not only naïve in terms of ecclesial theology but weakens the probability that the practices cited in those quoted passages will be implemented. The Pope is too wise to issue heavy-handed edicts, especially in regions like New England (and now Ireland) where an entrenched clericalism allowed and sheltered behavior more associated with prisons than rectories.

    Passages recommending the retention of Latin and the promotion of chant are not self-implementing pieces of legislation. Documents do count, but Vatican II bishops did – mistakenly or not - exercise their legal options. With this as backdrop, it seems far more prudent today to emphasize the efficacy of the Latin liturgy over an imposed legalism. Defenders of TLM or Latin chant don’t need to adjust or invent facts to advance their case or overreact to a bishop's view on the best way to prevent the spread of disease. You do need however to engage detractors openly, calmly, sensibly, and with forbearance if you wish the majority ever to comprehend the depth and richness of the Latin rite enjoyed by so few. I just don’t see this happening on a wide scale.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Randolph,

    I guess I'm just flummoxed as to why you think this is a PR issue.
  • Were we ever really instructed on receiving properly in the hand? I think so, but there certainly seem to be so many variations cropping up. OTOH, we WERE taught as 2nd graders how to receive on the tongue for our first Communion. Now-a-days that is no longer the case. If you open your mouth enough to stick your tongue out, and bring it back in without scraping the Host off in the process, everything works just fine. It is recommended that you close your eyes momentarily - not so much out of respect, but so that you the minister aren't playing a mutual game of hitting the moving target! If the tongue is sufficiently exposed, the minister's fingers never touch the tongue in order to lay the Host on the tongue. Of course, this all flies out the window if the Minister is forced to put the Host inside your mouth. And the whole process is further hindered by the communicant being required, not is in older days, to respond "Amen" before even beginning the process of opening up and sticking out! Now that's about 5 reasons for the old Mass' style of reception!
  • Chrism,

    When admirers of the TLM are automatically assumed to be whackos from the far right, you’ve got a public relations problem. That such people can be well-adjusted, highly educated, and capable of engaging the broader public with understanding and self-deprecating humor only underscores a need for a revision of common perceptions.

    Again, observations may vary according to geographic region. I’m speaking from my experience in New England.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    Father Z has posted a wise column today with a story about how to deal (and how not to deal) with people in disputes.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Well, I guess I'll be staying flummoxed.

    All I see in post #1 is a local pastoral crisis and a wound against the unity of the Church.

    Who said anything here about "well-adjusted"? I don't know who you might know in New England, but that's not me, Randolph. That's just not me.
  • Chrism’s repeated queries remind me that I have broken a golden rule of blog commentary. Stay on topic! Thanks to Chonak, the Fr. Z link brings the original subject back in focus.

    The frequent odd looks I get from some friends and acquaintances - granted a mostly secular, academic, post-Christian crowd - when expressing my admiration for the Latin Mass perhaps explains an unnecessary over-sensitivity. In any event, I apologize for taking an important discussion off course.